Make the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man there own provinces

[jjake101]

The addition of these two new provinces is something i'd really be interested in seeing

The Channel Islands have been a part of England since 1066 and the Isle of Man would make create an interesting point of contention between England and Scotland. It would be an English controlled province, with both England and Scottland having it as a core (here's a little background reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man#History)

 

[grommile]

The Channel Islands have been a part of England since 1066 and the Isle of Man would make create an interesting point of contention between England and Scotland.

I am confused. What is this concept "an interesting point of contention between England and Scotland" in the context of EU4?

 

[neondt]

The Channel Islands have been a part of England since 1066

Actually, the Channel Islands are not and have never been part of England. They were initially part of the Duchy of Normandy (and technically still are), and more recently are considered a Crown Dependency of the United Kingdom. There are several ways to interpret the status of the islands, but "part of England" is just wrong.

I would however appreciate it if the tiny blobs on the map that are supposed to represent Jersey and Guernsey were part of the Wessex province rather than Normandy. Wouldn't affect gameplay at all, but it'd make the map less wrong.

 

[Utretch]

Personally the Isle of Mann would be a nice edition to the game, however the Channel Islands are much more of a stretch, and probably best left part of Normandie or switched to Wessex.

 

[megaspider01]

I'm for Isle of Mann

 

[Chief of Staff]

If going to add those provinces, I'd suggest making them subject vassals. Right now, we already have Beyond the Pale mod that added the Isle of Man to the map but not Channel Islands and the province of Isle of Man was assigned as a subject vassal of England in the beginning of the game. Duchy of Normandy, at least in Channel Islands, would also make sense as subject vassal if it's going to be added. I can't really speak for whether it is appropriate to add Channel Islands at all, though, but it'd be a nice addition.

 

[Casus_Belli]

I say, make the Isle of Man a province, and either add in the other two channel islands, make them visible and part of England (with a strait to Wessex), or make them part of Wessex.

 

[FreeSoc]

I say, make the Isle of Man a province, and either add in the other two channel islands, make them visible and part of England (with a strait to Wessex), or make them part of Wessex.

A strait between the Channel Islands and England, if the Channel Islands became a province in their own right (which would itself be a bit silly, because Jersey and Guernsey are administered separately), would be absolutely absurd. The distance from Guernsey to Bournemouth is, according to Google Maps, with some adjustment made to make the route a bit more "as the crow flies", 150km. From Jersey it's closer to 200km. For reference, that's about the same distance as a strait between the Vorpommern-Hinterpommern frontier and Skane would be in-game. The only comparable strait in Europe is the Athens-Naxos strait, and that includes a chain of islands that does not exist between Wessex and Jersey or Guernsey.

What might make a bit more sense would be a strait from the Channel Islands to Normandy, as there's a comparatively minor distance of 60km between Jersey and Granville (on the Cotentin peninsula).

 

[Edmon]

Jersey was one of the most fought after and fortified places during the period EUIV covers in the entire world.

Yet everyone here is saying that it wouldn't be an interesting place to play?

I think it'd be an awesome addition. It was also the number one place to stash and re-supply invading forces during the hundred years war.

England and France fought over Jersey for the best part of 106 years.

It should definitely be in.

 

[grommile]

Jersey was one of the most fought after and fortified places during the period EUIV covers in the entire world.

Yet everyone here is saying that it wouldn't be an interesting place to play?

Unless-and-until a complete revamp of the naval game, the Channel Islands would be dull as distilled water as a gameplay element.

 

[neondt]

Jersey was one of the most fought after and fortified places during the period EUIV covers in the entire world.

Nobody fought over Jersey. The French opportunistically seized it a few times when England was looking the other way. It was retaken with minimal effort. And while Elizabeth Castle is impressive it hardly "one of the most fortified places" in the world.

I think it'd be an awesome addition. It was also the number one place to stash and re-supply invading forces during the hundred years war.

England and France fought over Jersey for the best part of 106 years.

HYW is pretty much over in EU's time period. Doesn't really warrant including a province.

Unless-and-until a complete revamp of the naval game, the Channel Islands would be dull as distilled water as a gameplay element.

This. Jersey's real relevance was as a base for privateering. This can't currently be represented in-game.

 

[Edmon]

Nobody fought over Jersey. The French opportunistically seized it a few times when England was looking the other way. It was retaken with minimal effort. And while Elizabeth Castle is impressive it hardly "one of the most fortified places" in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jersey (6 January 1781)

Why would you say things that are easily disproven over 5 minutes of Wikipedia, I will never know. I'm picking this one because the Hundred Years war battles are plentiful if you actually dig into the history. And jersey is absolutely riddled with Towers and castles. For a measure of fortifications per square mile, it IS the most fortified place in the world (that isn't literally a castle town).

We've got at least 10 of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jersey#mediaviewer/File:Jersey_round_tower.jpg

You somehow managed to forget about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jersey#mediaviewer/File:Mont_Orgueil_castle_Jersey.jpg

And then there is Elizabeth castle, which you mentioned:
http://www.jersey.com/PublishingImages/Attractions/display_detail/dis_elizabeth_castle_1.jpg

Can you even name this one? There are plenty more ruined castles in Jersey:
http://www.jeron.je/thatwasjersey/castlefiles/AF030big.jpg

 

[neondt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jersey (6 January 1781)

As I said. An opportunistic attack by the French while GB was occupied with other things (America and India). Only ~3000 men involved. And that's the only significant land battle on the island in the period.

I'm picking this one because the Hundred Years war battles are plentiful if you actually dig into the history.

That conflict ends less than 10 years into the game's period. If you were arguing for Jersey's inclusion into CK2 I'd absolutely agree with you, but this is EUIV. I don't think significance during the HYW is a good argument here.

And jersey is absolutely riddled with Towers and castles. For a measure of fortifications per square mile, it IS the most fortified place in the world (that isn't literally a castle town).

Most of the fortifications are from before or after the EU period though. Elizabeth Castle is the only really notable fortification build during it. Which by EU standards is probably a fort level 3-ish, though you can't really compare because it primarily defended against naval rather than land-based threats. (something else EU doesn't simulate: sea forts). The round towers you mention were built only a couple of years before the end of the period, and most of them incomplete at the time of said significant land battle.

Can you even name this one? There are plenty more ruined castles in Jersey:
http://www.jeron.je/thatwasjersey/castlefiles/AF030big.jpg

That'd be Grosnez. I know because it's about a 15 minute walk from my house . It's... not a good example of a period-relevant fortification for obvious reasons.

I'm not saying Jersey should never be in EUIV, but that it'd be pointless to include unless its significance could actually be added to the game. Because otherwise it's just a 1 base-tax fish (grain in later dates) province with a needlessly powerful fort that defends nothing of value. If the game were to somehow simulate privateering bases (we were the most successful base for privateers in the British Isles against French shipping in the period) or naval forts, then maybe it'll be time to think about giving Jersey its day.

(I've actually just had an idea for the implementation of naval forts. I'm thinking it could give a Fire bonus to friendly fleets in sea zones that border the province. Should be VERY expensive to build though.)

edit: I totally forgot I made this http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?734585-Mod-Best-Mod-Ever

 

[Edmon]

As I said. An opportunistic attack by the French while GB was occupied with other things (America and India). Only ~3000 men involved. And that's the only significant land battle on the island in the period.



That conflict ends less than 10 years into the game's period. If you were arguing for Jersey's inclusion into CK2 I'd absolutely agree with you, but this is EUIV. I don't think significance during the HYW is a good argument here.



Most of the fortifications are from before or after the EU period though. Elizabeth Castle is the only really notable fortification build during it. Which by EU standards is probably a fort level 3-ish, though you can't really compare because it primarily defended against naval rather than land-based threats. (something else EU doesn't simulate: sea forts). The round towers you mention were built only a couple of years before the end of the period, and most of them incomplete at the time of said significant land battle.



That'd be Grosnez. I know because it's about a 15 minute walk from my house . It's... not a good example of a period-relevant fortification for obvious reasons.

I'm not saying Jersey should never be in EUIV, but that it'd be pointless to include unless its significance could actually be added to the game. Because otherwise it's just a 1 base-tax fish (grain in later dates) province with a needlessly powerful fort that defends nothing of value. If the game were to somehow simulate privateering bases (we were the most successful base for privateers in the British Isles against French shipping in the period) or naval forts, then maybe it'll be time to think about giving Jersey its day.

(I've actually just had an idea for the implementation of naval forts. I'm thinking it could give a Fire bonus to friendly fleets in sea zones that border the province. Should be VERY expensive to build though.)

edit: I totally forgot I made this http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?734585-Mod-Best-Mod-Ever

You should totally upgrade that mod and balance it. If you do I'll make an empire with it.

I managed to do a few 1000+ provence games, so I'm pretty confident.