There should be more Greeks and Armenians in Anatolia, also why isn't there Kurdish culture?
Also Anatolia (and Balkans) needs more provinces.
Also Anatolia (and Balkans) needs more provinces.
Make more of Anatolia greek
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i have no doubt CanOmer will save the day with his map prowess!
As much fun as playing Byzantium is I kind of want to try a Trebizond game. That's brutal....
From the TimeLapse video Trebizond survived towards the late 16th century as did Byzantium, so I think the Ottomans are rather peaceful with their Greek neighbours.
Trebizond is so much more doomed. Even in mod Meiou they die relatively quickly in EU3.
Trebizond shall rise one day.
In my Balance of Power mod, Trebizond had a vassal, Chepni.
In EU3 there is a -30% tax penalty in provinces with a non-accepted culture. This is separate from the -90% census tax penalty in uncored provinces.
Having Anatolia 100% Turkish would not be historical. As this is EU4 and not Victoria 2, provinces can only have one culture. To represent Greeks in Anatolia, having some provinces along the coast Greek would work out perfectly for this purpose. Considering that there was still 16.4% Greeks living in Anatolia in 1910, it would not be a stretch at all to do this. There are 16 Turkish provinces in Anatolia. Making Izmir and Mentese into Greek culture would mean 12% of Anatolia would be considered Greek. (Not accounting for Treb)
At this time period, there would have been much more than just 12% Greek population throughout Anatolia. Having the coast as Greek would be a much more accurate representation than what it is right now.
From viewing the dev diaries, streams and previews, we can all see that the Ottomans already streamroll. They are nothing like the version of Ottomans that we see in EU3. They dominate. HARD. Having two provinces as Greek culture would not change this very much at all.
Resources:
Census in 1910
Ethnicity in 1910
Demographics of the Ottoman Empire
Of course having these two provinces 100% Greek is unhistorical. Without a doubt. Having Anatolia 100% Turkish is unhistorical as well. As you cannot split provinces by culture, doing what is suggested above would make Anatolia as a whole 12% Greek and 88% Turkish (Or 17% Greek if you could Trebizond in).
For creating the intended purpose (having a minority Greek population in Anatolia), this does the job.
At this time period, there would have been much more than just 12% Greek population throughout Anatolia. Having the coast as Greek would be a much more accurate representation than what it is right now.
From viewing the dev diaries, streams and previews, we can all see that the Ottomans already streamroll. They are nothing like the version of Ottomans that we see in EU3. They dominate. HARD. Having two provinces as Greek culture would not change this very much at all.
Resources:
Census in 1910
Ethnicity in 1910
Demographics of the Ottoman Empire
Of course having these two provinces 100% Greek is unhistorical. Without a doubt. Having Anatolia 100% Turkish is unhistorical as well. As you cannot split provinces by culture, doing what is suggested above would make Anatolia as a whole 12% Greek and 88% Turkish (Or 17% Greek if you could Trebizond in).
For creating the intended purpose (having a minority Greek population in Anatolia), this does the job.
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You have to remember you only get the majority culture represented in each province. In that map, all the provinces would still be considered 'Turkish' in the game.
Thats exactly the point. Minority populations in provinces are not accounted for AT ALL. That means a province that is majority Italian, for example, might as well be considered 100% Italian. Even if it had a population of 60% Italian and 40% German. Having every province in Anatolia showing Turkish means the game is going to just pretend every citizen in Anatolia is Turkish (for tax, trade, manpower, ect. purposes).
Representing Anatolia as essentially 100% Turkish would cheapen the Ottoman Empire experience in EU4. Part of the lure of playing the Ottomans is ruling a diverse empire with many cultures and religions. Sure, making Izmir and Mentese Greek would not be 100% accurate for the provinces. But it would simulate the region as a whole much more effectively.
There you have it, you can't really do much other than to ask the devs to rework the culture and religion features.
Yeah. Forgive me for not reading your post better. My mistake.
I am not so sure having Greeks in Anatolia is so vital for the Ottoman experience, though. You still start with a lot of Greek provinces in Europe proper. Furthermore, as you expand you will acquire more more more foreign culture to your empire. It is not a couple of Greek provinces in Anatolia that will make the empire be more diverse. In fact, having more provinces being Christan Greeks in the game start means the Ottomans will start with a Christan majority, which I don't think is a good idea.
Personally, I would like a "minority culture" province modifier or something like that. It would certainly make the game more interesting to me.
The Europa series never claimed that the culture of a province represented the entire population of said province. What it represented was either the majority culture of a province or the largest culture group of a province if no culture had a majority.
It was never meant to be a perfect or even accurate representation of demographics in a province. It is simply a broad stroke approach to cultural resistance to foreign occupation. It is not by design to provide a nuanced approach to this issue nor go into the complexity of cultural assimilation. Instead look at the cultural tag not so much as the culture of a province, either what the culture has become or is already but rather that it has accepted rule from the provinces' listed culture. And then only in broad terms and not by all peoples within the province. At least for provinces that have significant cultural minorities.
There is already too many hang ups over culture with players. The EU series doesn't need anymore especially when the game's scale is so huge and the complexity of culture, cultural resistance and cultural assimilation is pretty much a case by case basis. I mean why did the Saxons and Normans become English but the Dutch didn't assimilate to form a new culture with their ruling Austrians or the ruling Spanish? Cultures are unique and while the Normans of England fused with the Saxons to become something different the Italians and Greeks of Southern Italy didn't become culturally fused with their Norman rulers. So its not even dependant on who the invaders were, it is far more complex.
I think the EUs series approach to culture and cultural assimilation is good enough and in its current almost abstract way it deals with culture and cultural occupations we are less likely to have arguments on the subject. And less likely to have nationalism start clouding the discussion. The more complex we make the system the more likely nationalism will muddy the waters and cause issues. In its current form the system works.
It was never meant to be a perfect or even accurate representation of demographics in a province. It is simply a broad stroke approach to cultural resistance to foreign occupation. It is not by design to provide a nuanced approach to this issue nor go into the complexity of cultural assimilation. Instead look at the cultural tag not so much as the culture of a province, either what the culture has become or is already but rather that it has accepted rule from the provinces' listed culture. And then only in broad terms and not by all peoples within the province. At least for provinces that have significant cultural minorities.
There is already too many hang ups over culture with players. The EU series doesn't need anymore especially when the game's scale is so huge and the complexity of culture, cultural resistance and cultural assimilation is pretty much a case by case basis. I mean why did the Saxons and Normans become English but the Dutch didn't assimilate to form a new culture with their ruling Austrians or the ruling Spanish? Cultures are unique and while the Normans of England fused with the Saxons to become something different the Italians and Greeks of Southern Italy didn't become culturally fused with their Norman rulers. So its not even dependant on who the invaders were, it is far more complex.
I think the EUs series approach to culture and cultural assimilation is good enough and in its current almost abstract way it deals with culture and cultural occupations we are less likely to have arguments on the subject. And less likely to have nationalism start clouding the discussion. The more complex we make the system the more likely nationalism will muddy the waters and cause issues. In its current form the system works.
The provinces are too big to justify making them Greek. Maybe if they were thin coastal strips. As they are in EU, no way in hell they are Greek. Pontus and Thrace are Greek as they should be. Others were around 10% Greek in the EU period. They should not be Greek in culture.
JasonOfArgos has some good links and to think that all provinces has is has turkish majority is plain wrong. If you read about the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey, all muslims were viewed as turks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
There should also be more armenian provinces, not only one like in EU3. This is properly outside Anatolia (provinces bordering Anatolia).
As for the Armenian Genocide (witch is off topic), it was the Ottoman empire who killed them (with is a turkish empire). To say that it didnt happen is like germany saying they didnt kill any jews, because it was under the third reich.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
Indeed. It was an empire precisely because it managed to strange some minorities, tax others, etc. And managing minorities demands resources. So yes this all Anatolia=Turkish stuff if pure fantasy. Maybe these specific provinces could have a slightly bigger base revolt risk to represent non-Turks.
The whole definition of 'Turk' is changed by Kemal Attaturk so looking back from him will always confuse things. Calling Roman identifying Hellenised Lydians 'Greeks' or 'Turks' after immigrants that probably had a small effect on their ancestry is no less anachronistic than assigning 1444 province culture by post 1922 borders.
Beylerbeyi:
If only 10% of the population were Greek, then Anatolia was pretty much unpopulated before the turks arived (or did they just die of the black death or something?). The fact that there are not that many greeks today is because of cultural/religios conversion over 400 years or more. Why stay christian, if you have to give your oldest son to the ottoman army and pay more taxes.
If only 10% of the population were Greek, then Anatolia was pretty much unpopulated before the turks arived (or did they just die of the black death or something?). The fact that there are not that many greeks today is because of cultural/religios conversion over 400 years or more. Why stay christian, if you have to give your oldest son to the ottoman army and pay more taxes.
Eastern Anatolia and the overall interior of the peninsula was seriously depopulated during the 10-11 centuries, though the coastal cities still thrived under the Byzantines. This was a combination of Turkic threat, land hostility, and growth of big land lords who preferred to produce wool for the textile industry rather than crops, hence the population migrated. Because of the Turkic threat much of the population in the Eastern part was evacuated to the coast. Then the Turks came and settled. Actually many shepherds came on their own rather than in armies and eventually settled. Then there were many wars which has determined population exile, not to mention the Timurid "treatment" of cities like Smyrna and the countryside. But I think that if there is going to be a 1399 DLC before the Timurid invasion more Greeks should be on the western coast.
The special taxes on non-muslims exist in CK2, and in the MEIOU mod of EU3. It's obviously not impossible to implement, and it'd be pretty damn cool to have it and have it as a reason for Ottomans not to mass convert the entire balkans. Also Ataturk is a cool guy, don't diss him yo.
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