Make maginot line great again

[MGL 86]

They should've made Germany pay for it.

LOL. But Maginot line is already great.

 

[amalric de g.]

During the advance to the English Channel, the Germans overran France's border defence with Belgium and several Maginot Forts in the Maubeuge area, whilst the Luftwaffe simply flew over it. On 19 May, the German 16th Army successfully captured the isolated petit ouvrage La Ferte (southeast of Sedan) after conducting a deliberate assault by combat engineers backed up by heavy artillery. The entire French crew of 107 soldiers was killed during the action. On 14 June 1940, the day Paris fell, the German 1st Army went over to the offensive in "Operation Tiger" and attacked the Maginot Line between St. Avold and Saarbrücken. The Germans then broke through the fortification line as defending French forces retreated southward. In the following days, infantry divisions of the 1st Army attacked fortifications on each side of the penetration; successfully capturing four petits ouvrages. The 1st Army also conducted two attacks against the Maginot Line further to the east in northern Alsace. One attack successfully broke through a weak section of the line in the Vosges Mountains, but a second attack was stopped by the French defenders near Wissembourg. On 15 June, infantry divisions of the German 7th Army attacked across the Rhine River in Operation "Small Bear", penetrating the defences deep and capturing the cities of Colmar and Strasbourg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line#German_invasion_in_World_War_II

Sure, the Maginot Line was impenetrable.

 

[keynes2.0]

impenetrable.

You are the first one in this thread to use that word.

 

[JerkyJerry]

Was it ever great to begin with?
I'm not so sure. It seems to me it was a static defense that was built for an era long gone by.

Now to this game. I think they have more value in a solo game than a multiplayer one.

 

[kviiri]

Was it ever great to begin with?
I'm not so sure. It seems to me it was a static defense that was built for an era long gone by.

Well, on one hand, the German army went around it, so it probably was strong enough to deter direct assault.
On the other hand...

...

...it could be walked around.

 

[The Requimen]

Sure, the Maginot Line was impenetrable.

Hey, if you want to quote wiki, please don't stop there!

"By early June the German forces had cut off the line from the rest of France and the French government was making overtures for an armistice, which was signed on 22 June in Compiègne. As the line was surrounded, the German Army attacked a few ouvrages from the rear, but were unsuccessful in capturing any significant fortifications. The main fortifications of the line were still mostly intact, a number of commanders were prepared to hold out, and the Italian advance had been successfully contained. Nevertheless, Maxime Weygand signed the surrender instrument and the army was ordered out of their fortifications, to be taken to POW camps."

So yea, the Maginot Line was not impenetrable. Neither is any safe. Both are meant to detour, deter, or delay enemy forces attacking it. Which the Maginot Line did successfully.

The ignorance people show towards what the Maginot Line was for is astounding. It succeeded in all of it's goals. Every one. The Maginot Line didn't fail, or cause the fall of France. Gamelin and the French High Command did.

 

[DocMorningstar]

The Maginot was a very good solution to a country which had relatively more money than bodies, since it acted as a force multiplier for the troops they did have. Bullets, not bodies (basically). Not having a 'Belgium is kaput' plan in place, though, was bad, bad, bad planning. They had 3 years to come up with a 'plan B' once Belgium withdrew from their treaty.

So yea, the Maginot Line was not impenetrable. Neither is any safe. Both are meant to detour, deter, or delay enemy forces attacking it. Which the Maginot Line did successfully.

The ignorance people show towards what the Maginot Line was for is astounding. It succeeded in all of it's goals. Every one. The Maginot Line didn't fail, or cause the fall of France. Gamelin and the French High Command did.

The Maginot was a good idea - but it required a comprehensive defensive strategy, that forced the enemy to come through it. On the other hand, an infantry division is less cost effective, but fairly useful no matter what the situation is.

France, though, had a history of being very competent in military planning and execution. They simply had not foreseen a situation which could evolve so fast. It was a failure of vision, not of execution.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Forts already look awesome. As they should be, modern day forts would be terrifying to attack. Only reason nobody builds them is becouse they are not worth it, better to spend money elsewhere. Tanks for example, which are moving forts.

 

[JerkyJerry]

So yea, the Maginot Line was not impenetrable. Neither is any safe. Both are meant to detour, deter, or delay enemy forces attacking it. Which the Maginot Line did successfully.

The ignorance people show towards what the Maginot Line was for is astounding. It succeeded in all of it's goals. Every one. The Maginot Line didn't fail, or cause the fall of France. Gamelin and the French High Command did.

Thanks Requimen for the information.
I'm no war or WWII buff but I am learning!

 

[JerkyJerry]

Well, on one hand, the German army went around it, so it probably was strong enough to deter direct assault.
On the other hand...

...

...it could be walked around.

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[gamedude]

Where did you get that idea? At least in the WWW multiplayer campaign a piece of Maginot line held out for *ages* after the rest of France was overrun by the Germans. They give really good bonuses, the real reason to not buy them is when you're going to be on the offensive you wouldn't gain much from them anyway.

Hence why any minor nation can actually survive the onslaught of Soviet or Germany(For you Finland, Norway and good luck Denmark).

 

[The Requimen]

The Maginot was a very good solution to a country which had relatively more money than bodies, since it acted as a force multiplier for the troops they did have. Bullets, not bodies (basically). Not having a 'Belgium is kaput' plan in place, though, was bad, bad, bad planning. They had 3 years to come up with a 'plan B' once Belgium withdrew from their treaty.

Well, the, "We win. Sorta." plan of preemptively invading and occupying Germany, or at least the Rhineland was a no go politically.

Other than that or some other fantastic alternate history, I'm not sure what else the French could do. Go on the offensive into Germany through the Maginot Line, leaving little to cover the Belgian border and the vital coastal ports? Maybe start digging in on the French-Belgian border, e.g. E (Escaut) Plan? Or perhaps spare France from having to fight over and in the process devastating it's own territory for as long as possible by moving into Belgium the moment Germany inevitably invades, e.g. (historical) Dyle Plan?

The most obvious thing the French could have done differently in any scenario was to not commit their reserves in unless it was an emergency.

(note, for anyone who does not know, the classic trope that the French had no reserve is false. They had one, but they committed it to Belgium where it was cut off along with the rest of the crème de la crème of the French Army.)

The Maginot was a good idea - but it required a comprehensive defensive strategy, that forced the enemy to come through it. On the other hand, an infantry division is less cost effective, but fairly useful no matter what the situation is.

I'm not sure if we agree on the stated purpose of the Maginot Line. From what I understand, besides saving manpower, it was meant to protect Alsace-Lorraine and the industrial basin there from the similar occupation and devastation of the last war by compelling Germany to find other ways into France, Belgium being the most obvious and desired choice.

Since Germany didn't care about the neutrality of Belgium or any other country for that matter, the only way to make Germany come through the strong southern half of the Maginot Line would be to make the northern half stronger than the south. I am not sure they could do this in the three years they have. Also, it would still conflict with the British and French goal of doing as much of the fighting in Belgium for as long as possible.

Also, not sure what you intend by the infantry division part. As you state yourself, France had a real dearth of manpower, while the Maginot Line cost no more than 2-3% of the French prewar military budget 1930-39.

France, though, had a history of being very competent in military planning and execution. They simply had not foreseen a situation which could evolve so fast. It was a failure of vision, not of execution.

I agree.

 

[LordOfWar16]

Simply fortify a big river and you basicly have a inpenetrateable line of defense if you rotate out the defensive troops with fresh ones. Fortifying the Suez as the british for example turned out to completly stop the german advance.

 

[Secret Master]

During the advance to the English Channel, the Germans overran France's border defence with Belgium and several Maginot Forts in the Maubeuge area, whilst the Luftwaffe simply flew over it. On 19 May, the German 16th Army successfully captured the isolated petit ouvrage La Ferte (southeast of Sedan) after conducting a deliberate assault by combat engineers backed up by heavy artillery. The entire French crew of 107 soldiers was killed during the action. On 14 June 1940, the day Paris fell, the German 1st Army went over to the offensive in "Operation Tiger" and attacked the Maginot Line between St. Avold and Saarbrücken. The Germans then broke through the fortification line as defending French forces retreated southward. In the following days, infantry divisions of the 1st Army attacked fortifications on each side of the penetration; successfully capturing four petits ouvrages. The 1st Army also conducted two attacks against the Maginot Line further to the east in northern Alsace. One attack successfully broke through a weak section of the line in the Vosges Mountains, but a second attack was stopped by the French defenders near Wissembourg. On 15 June, infantry divisions of the German 7th Army attacked across the Rhine River in Operation "Small Bear", penetrating the defences deep and capturing the cities of Colmar and Strasbourg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line#German_invasion_in_World_War_II

Sure, the Maginot Line was impenetrable.

No one said it was impenetrable. But if you are going to use Wiki to disparage the Maginot Line, the least I can do is use Wiki to show how useful it was. What was written directly underneath the part you quoted.

By early June the German forces had cut off the line from the rest of France and the French government was making overtures for an armistice, which was signed on 22 June in Compiègne. As the line was surrounded, the German Army attacked a few ouvrages from the rear, but were unsuccessful in capturing any significant fortifications. The main fortifications of the line were still mostly intact, a number of commanders were prepared to hold out, and the Italian advance had been successfully contained. Nevertheless, Maxime Weygand signed the surrender instrument and the army was ordered out of their fortifications...

And even more interesting:

Meanwhile, to the east, Army Group C was to help Army Group A encircle and capture the French forces on the Maginot line. The goal of the operation was to envelop the Metz region, with its fortifications, to prevent a French counteroffensive from the Alsace region against the German line on the Somme. Guderian's XIX Korps was to advance to the French border with Switzerland and trap the French forces in the Vosges Mountains while the XVI Korps attacked the Maginot Line from the west, into its vulnerable rear to take the cities of Verdun, Toul and Metz. The French, meanwhile, had moved the French 2nd Army Group from the Alsace and Lorraine to the 'Weygand line' on the Somme, leaving only small forces guarding the Maginot line. After Army Group B had begun its offensive against Paris and into Normandy, Army Group A began its advance into the rear of the Maginot line. On 15 June, Army Group C launched Operation Tiger, a frontal assault across the Rhine and into France.[229]

German attempts to break open or into the Maginot line prior to Tiger had failed. One assault lasted for eight hours on the extreme north of the line, costing the Germans 46 dead and 251 wounded, while just two French were killed (one at Ferme-Chappy and one at Fermont fortress). On 15 June, the last well-equipped French forces, including the French Fourth Army, were preparing to leave as the Germans struck. The French now holding the line were skeletal.[230] The Germans greatly outnumbered the French. They could call upon the I Armeekorps of seven divisions and 1,000 artillery pieces, although most were First World War vintage, and could not penetrate the thick armour of the fortresses. Only 88 mm guns could do the job, and 16 were allocated to the operation. To bolster this, 150 mm and eight railway batteries were also employed. The Luftwaffe deployed the Fliegerkorps V to give air support.[230]

The battle was difficult and slow progress was made against strong French resistance. However, each fortress was overcome one by one.[231] One fortress (Schoenenbourg) fired 15,802 75 mm rounds at attacking German infantry. It was the most heavily shelled of all the French positions. Nevertheless, its armour protected it from fatal damage. The same day Tiger was launched, Operation Kleiner Bär began. Five assault divisions of the VII Armeekorps crossed the Rhine into the Colmar area with a view to advancing to the Vosges Mountains. It had 400 artillery pieces bolstered by heavy artillery and mortars. They drove the French 104th Division and 105th Division back into the Vosges Mountains on 17 June. However, on the same day Guderian's XIX Korps reached the Swiss border and the Maginot defences were cut off from the rest of France. Most units surrendered on 25 June, and the Germans claimed to have taken 500,000 prisoners. Some main fortresses continued the fight, despite appeals for surrender. The last only capitulated on 10 July, after a request from Georges, and only then under protest.[232] Of the 58 major fortifications on the Maginot Line, just 10 were captured by the Wehrmacht in battle.[233]

So, just to be clear to everyone in this thread:

The Maginot Line held out longer than Maurice Gamelin, Marshal Petain, and the entire French Republic. Even when attacked from the rear, fortresses were difficult to seize. Even when surrounded and the government surrendered, fortresses continued to hold out.

You can make fun of the French for surrendering (I don't, but other people do), but I wouldn't make fun of the Maginot Line's battlefield record. It did better than the rest of the French and British armies in 1940.

 

[Commissar Yossarian]

Or using historical hindsight just close the wall to the sea in the Three damn years you have. French malus on doctrine makes trying build out your army foolish at best.

In MP you can just bunker the French as garrison and use the BEF as a striking wing. Maxed out forts to the sea will end any quick capture of France short of massed heavy armour attacking that you canon penetrate.

 

[lekim]

Guys, guys, you are missing my point entirely.

I am not saying Maginot line was not good, I am saying that in the Game (HoI 2/3) a player would never built it. Any this is exactly what I want to change.
It makes sense in certain scenarios to build static defense, they should just be sexy enough for the players.

 

[safe-keeper]

Well, on one hand, the German army went around it, so it probably was strong enough to deter direct assault.
On the other hand...

...

...it could be walked around.

Then again, that was the exact point -- and the Germans technically didn't really bypass it, as there were fortifications, albeit weaker, along the border all the way to the English Channel, I believe.

 

[jcd000]

Guys, guys, you are missing my point entirely.

I am not saying Maginot line was not good, I am saying that in the Game (HoI 2/3) a player would never built it. Any this is exactly what I want to change.
It makes sense in certain scenarios to build static defense, they should just be sexy enough for the players.

Extending the Maginot to the sea, fortifying the Pyrenees-Barcelona line as a Spain allied to the UK, fortifying the Odessa-Kiev-Smolensk line as SU and even fortifying Greek Macedonia are all things i've done with sucess in HOI2 & mods. Arguably just building INF may be more useful, but its not when German armor starts moving before you got enough troops. (and i much prefer building IC early, not to mention that Spanish and esp. Greek manpower is very low)

PS. For the Maginot, i think that was exactly the plan: To force the fighting to happen outside France, in Belgium where the BEF can also provide support. But wasting the best French troops in failed offensives, or failing to cope with blitzkrieg tactics was not a part of this.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

The Maginot line was actually quite cheap, and the germans never succesfully eliminated it. Their diversionary attacks could however just walk right past it. It is kind of hard to represent in the game. The fall of France is primarily German focus on concentration of force and independent command. The French military apparatus was inadequately structured and outmoded for the speed in which attacks happened on motorized scale. There was no specific failure in equipment, structure, or strategy that caused it except for the way France had structured military issuing of commands. This is also hard to represent in the game, as playing a game where you can't give orders whever you want is very frustrating.

 

[blue_yonder]

.. This is also hard to represent in the game, as playing a game where you can't give orders whever you want is very frustrating.

agreed - which is why the 75% malus they give to land doctrine progress is a very neat solution. You can reform the army and remove the malus quite soon if you devote all your NF to it, but only at the expense of industry/extra research slot/no involvement in the SCW etc. In practise, most players of France won't remove the 'victors of WW1' syndrome until 1939 or so.