Make it close to impossible to conquer the world

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Easy1

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An empire, state or nation etc. has yet to conquer the world. In fact, no empire has been close to achieving it. Why? Because conquering the world is very hard, and we will most likely never see anyone doing it. Military issues aside, some scholars of realism in international relations theory even argue that it is impossible. There is a balance of power on the international political arena. Be too close to global hegemony, and everyone will see you as a threat and ally against you.

Thus, it should be extremely difficult to achieve global supremacy. No more global conquest by Costa Rica. And even with superpowers such as the US and the USSR, it should be extremely difficult - something only less than 1-5% of player base is able to.

I'd argue it is not fun conquering the world either, so consider having it close to impossible.
 

Carbon

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I sort of agree, especially world conquest in the span of less than 2 decades. It's realistically impossible.

The closest thing one can hope to achieve is attaining global hegemony in a manner like the United States in the '90s where no other country can challenge you in any category.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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But a entire alignment, such as the Axis... shouldn't they be able to conquer the world? Germany and Japan came pretty close to it in WW2. While they wouldn't haven't have been able to occupy all the territory, they would have had a lot of allied/puppet countries.
 

Had a dad

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But a entire alignment, such as the Axis... shouldn't they be able to conquer the world? Germany and Japan came pretty close to it in WW2. While they wouldn't haven't have been able to occupy all the territory, they would have had a lot of allied/puppet countries.
define pretty close... all of North America

well let's break it down

continent(km²)
Asia43 810 000
America42 330 000
Africa30 370 000
North America24 490 000
South America17 840 000
Antarctica13 720 000
Europe10 180 000
Oceania9 010 000
Oceania-New Guinea8 500 000
Oceania mainland7 600 000


Asia at best 50% (but realistically less than 30%) Axis at the height. so = 23. Africa ... ummm we'll be generous and give 2/3 = 20, and Europe 3/4 = 7.5, for a total of 50.5

Allies, the rest of Europe, Asia, and Africa = 35.5, add in North America 60....


So not even 50%, how does that equate to coming pretty close?
 

Adonnus

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But a entire alignment, such as the Axis... shouldn't they be able to conquer the world? Germany and Japan came pretty close to it in WW2. While they wouldn't haven't have been able to occupy all the territory, they would have had a lot of allied/puppet countries.

While the Axis occupied Europe resistance movements were not just existing, they were RAGING. If a couple of militaristic and nationalist countries decided to take over the world, there would simply be another war, wars of liberation after the first one has ended.

If an alliance with an internationalist ideology, however, decided to take over the world through satellite governments, it might be possible. If the objective is not to 'liberate' but to oppress under a nationalistic regime, then no, absolutely impossible.

Did you know that in China, between 37-45, the Japanese Army only controlled the cities and major railway stations? They had little or no control over the whole supposedly 'occupied' countryside, which was entirely controlled by guerrillas.
 

Sweynforkbeard

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Honestly, whether or not the world can realisticly be conquered should not be the key issue. The thing that should matter is whether or not compelling mechanisms can be created to prevent it.

1) Everyone ganging up on you is not really feasible since practically every important power will eventually become involved in the conflict on one side or the other anyway

2) No one really like infinite rebel spawns
 

Cybvep

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Frankly, even logistical issues alone makes world conquest unrealistic. You can have influence, friendly govs here and there, satellite states [you have to keep them loyal, ofc], but the world is simply too big for world-wide military occupation, while in PDS games it's actually not that hard.
 

FOARP

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I sort of agree, especially world conquest in the span of less than 2 decades. It's realistically impossible.

The closest thing one can hope to achieve is attaining global hegemony in a manner like the United States in the '90s where no other country can challenge you in any category.

Faction WC should be a difficult challenge, but possible. Single-country WC, with no pupppets, should be impossible.
 

Augustus93

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I don't think it should be impossible, it should be gradually more difficult to achieve as you play on harder difficulties. WC in very easy difficulty should not be impossible...
 

Cybvep

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As a rule of thumb, when people talk about balance and challenge, they mean the default difficulty level, i.e. normal, with no bonuses to the player or the AI. It's obvious that hard should be harder and easy should be easier, duh.
 

manteuffel2894

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A agree with you, I think the first thing that a global power should fight is the local resistance . after of the militar , the history is like you defeat one enemy another 10 are coming , if you conquer USSR like Germany for example . you should expend 50% of your army against resistance . and we can see maybe a China attacking germany . together with usa , and even if germany resists , and conquer china they should expend 90% of their power tryng to hold their positions . making nearly impossible continue the way to america.
 

FOARP

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As a rule of thumb, when people talk about balance and challenge, they mean the default difficulty level, i.e. normal, with no bonuses to the player or the AI. It's obvious that hard should be harder and easy should be easier, duh.

Yup.
 

Easy1

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But a entire alignment, such as the Axis... shouldn't they be able to conquer the world? Germany and Japan came pretty close to it in WW2. While they wouldn't haven't have been able to occupy all the territory, they would have had a lot of allied/puppet countries.

The world can certainly be conquered by several countries allied to each other. However, they are almost certainly not going to be allied anymore if they have no significant enemies left. Again, this is because there is a balance of power between states on the international political arena.

From the moment Japan and Germany are close to establishing global supremacy, they will start seeing each other as the greatest threat.
 

21oliver

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Ive brought this up many of times. The problem is everything is allowed to happen too fast. You can decide to invade a nation and wham the same day invade. Hell it took the USA 3 months just to get their troops in place for the Gulf War. Weather, Terrain, Casualties, Attrition are all insignificant. As the Soviets i can attack Afghanistan in January, no problem. I do amphibs and unload a dozen divisions including armor, no problem. A Minor can make 10 divisions and conquer half the world, one nation after another after another without the units ever falling apart. None of this is even remotely realistic.

To start with each nation should have a rating for the Quality of its Military Hierarchy. Then you should as the Political leader decide you want to invade a nation, and there should be a delay depending on the quality of your military to when you can actually launch. Make movement more difficult, terrain and weather should have major impacts, casualties should be amped up. Also there should be a down time between wars, also based on your Military/Govt/Infrastructure etc...

There should be different levels of game play, not easy-medium-hard etc... but historical / plausible historical / sandbox and say a normal or fast version... because many average players want to sit down and in an hour or two take Albania. Many historical fans want a more realistic game. For example if I play Bulgaria, if i can grab Greece and part of Turkey that should be a successful game.

Even a major nation shouldnt be able to conquer the world, even a faction should find it difficult in the time frame of the game. Last full game i played. I played Germany, as of 1941 I barely paid attention and had the AI handling alot and finished the world in 1943. I think if i remember correctly i took down the Soviet Union in 3 months, with the AI handling the invasion (all i did was give it 3 objectives).

Supply, movement, attrition, casualties, terrain, weather, Military leadership all could be adjusted and the game will be more realistic.
 

Bluestreak2k5

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@Had a Dad

If Germany which was miles from conquering Moscow, had actually beaten the USSR, Germany would have controlled everything west of the Urals, with the new Eastern USSR being a puppet government to Germany. With that:

Turkey would have become an ally of Germany, and was already considering it in the war.
Middle East would have come under complete control of Germany, and soon after that India would have been invaded.

The USSR is like 10% of the entire land mass of the world alone.

@21Oliver:
"I think if i remember correctly i took down the Soviet Union in 3 months, with the AI handling the invasion (all i did was give it 3 objectives)"
I find this highly improbable, or that you were playing on Easy which of course leads to world domination all the time. On Normal, even with me destorying hundreds of units, the USSR has several hundred units to throw against me. they have in 1941 around 700 to 800 units, and reach above 1000 if you wait longer.

Also your talking about moving an attack army from the other side of the world to try and attack a country when saying ti took 3 months for the Gulf war. We had enough defensive forces in place within 1 week to defend an attack, but not to attack. At this time Iraq had the 3rd largest army in the world, they were not some pushover force, which is why it took a coalition of armies to defeat them. The US with all of its power would probably have had to deploy its entire Army in Iraq to defeat Iraq alone. there were 967,000 men involved in the war, of which 700,000 were US. The US only has a standing army of around 900 to 1.2 million with another million as reserve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

Germany launched an offensive on Day 1 after declaring a war on Poland, Germany Declared war on Denmark and Norway at the same time and had them surrender within 1 month. USSR declared war on Finland and launched attacks the next day. Japan actually managed to bomb Pearl Harbour before their war declaration arrived due to technical issues....

In short I see nothing wrong with the system. It requires planning ahead of time by countries to war dec a country and launch an attack. These aren't random events that just happen without any control.
 

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Part of the issue here is that the game only deals with a small span of time. It's one thing to conquer a swath of land that's physically larger, and contains more people, than any other empire to date. It's quite another to keep it together for more than a decade. And it is still another to build a viable economy and culture for multiple decades after the conquest.

In another thread, we spent considerable time debating the realistic possibility of an Axis victory over the Soviets. One point that came up was that even if the Germans achieved their territorial ambitions against the Soviets, a refusal of the Soviets to surrender might not ever force the Germans out of the occupied territory (as in, the Soviets are forced to accept the territorial concessions of the Bitter Peace per HOI3, but Stalin never actually surrenders and sporadic fighting continues). But would it really be victory if Germany continued to keep a large army mobilized and continued to sustain significant casualties on the Eastern Front? The Soviets don't ever "win" by liberating their territory, but it's hard to call it a win for the Germans if the annexed territory is mostly useless between famines, insurgencies, partisans, and no real peace.

It's the same issue facing the Japanese victory in China. While it's very hard to imagine a complete annexation of China by Japan historically, even if it was somehow miraculously accomplished, would it still really be victory if the IJA must keep 3 million troops mobilized and stationed in China desperately trying to suppress insurgencies, warlords, workers going on strike, famines from failed agriculture, partisans, and all the other problems associated with conquest? It's hard to see it as really "winning" in the long run.

The time frame of any HOI3 game means that you don't have to live with the consequences of your empire building. So, the associated problems of world conquest aren't really there to model. And I think this is something the game can't really model. Do you honestly think the German people would have continued to support the regime for forty years if they had to stay mobilized in a war-time economy (rationing, lack of consumer goods) the whole time and cope with the widows and orphans effect, just to hold on to an empire? I don't think so; but HOI3 doesn't have any kind of economic or war exhaustion, and it shouldn't, either.

The irony is that the biggest deterrent to world conquest is something the Axis powers could not have foreseen with their outlook: world spanning empires were already on the way out. Just ask the British and the French a decade after V-J Day. ;)

Although, I just thought of a brilliant idea for a cyberpunk themed novel. A novel set in a future where the Axis powers won WWII, but globalization of the world economy and the Information Age still happen at roughly the same historical points. You'd have Krupp industries acting as a multinational corporation making billions of dollars a year while the Nazis are in decline, losing control of their empire. Jewish hackers change their ethnic certifications in Gestapo databases to avoid imprisonment while Yakuza crime lords blackmail prominent members of the Yamato family into giving them special business concessions in Indochina.
 
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21oliver

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@21Oliver:
"I think if i remember correctly i took down the Soviet Union in 3 months, with the AI handling the invasion (all i did was give it 3 objectives)"
I find this highly improbable, or that you were playing on Easy which of course leads to world domination all the time. On Normal, even with me destorying hundreds of units, the USSR has several hundred units to throw against me. they have in 1941 around 700 to 800 units, and reach above 1000 if you wait longer.

It took approx 3 months not much longer, i dont rememer exactly. I had about 180 INF divisions on the Western front with I dont remember exactly how many armor, maybe 30? I amphibbed Leningrad, had all the minors on the Soviet border call to arms, whereby the Soviets sent units deep into their nations which was fine with me. Japan attacked from the east, they fell like a ton of bricks, and fast. Next time ill save some screens.

Germany launched an offensive on Day 1 after declaring a war on Poland, Germany Declared war on Denmark and Norway at the same time and had them surrender within 1 month. USSR declared war on Finland and launched attacks the next day. Japan actually managed to bomb Pearl Harbour before their war declaration arrived due to technical issues....

A few things. Your missing the point of having "prep" time, which isnt present in the game. How long did it take Germany from the moment Hitler decided to go to war, to the point they did? My point is this. Say Im Yugoslavia, and i decide i want to invade Greece. In the game we can simply DOW, give an objective and let the AI draw our troops down to greece. Life doesnt work that way. The military staff will say they want 3-6 months to come up with plans, etc... and once Greece falls we as players could immediately DOW Turkey with no downtime in between wars, and then immediately invade Persia and so on. Thats not how life works. There needs to be downtime, to regroup, re-organize, re-plan. Germany took Poland in 1939, the low countries and France in 1940, attacked the Soviets in 1941. We as players can do that all simultaneously, which would have been impossible. We can conquer the world because we are allowed to do too much too fast.

Now add in the lack of "bite" from weather, terrain, movement, attrition. casualties and its a serious problem.

Also there should be more attrition/loss of units (and not just land units) just to accident, while nations are mobilized for war. I saw a page once that detailed it well. I was astounded, one site i just quickly found stated the USA lost due to training accidents "15,500 fatalities and the loss of over 7,100 aircraft."
 

Imaginary Star

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Impossible? Tell that to Alexander.
In vanilla anything should be possible.
 

GunslingerV

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Impossible? Tell that to Alexander.
In vanilla anything should be possible.

Haven't played vanilla ever since BICE 3.1. That being said... I seriously doubt world conquest with Costa Rica is possible in vanilla unless you're at least using nonneutrality cheat + more probably. Consider that A. you can't even DoW for a couple of years B. all your neighbors are guaranteed by USA...good luck.