Make historical forts more historical (ex. Rhodes, Constantinople)

[Redashirov]

Something I noticed when playing the expansion is that all of the forts in the whole world in the beginning of the game are the same, basically making it so that a fort in lets say Meath is just as powerful as the forts representing the Great Wall in Ming China. I think we should have some modifier in the historically (nearly) invulnerable fortresses in these provinces if not flat out upgrade the fort to the next level in order to make these provinces more realistically harder to obtain.To name a few, The Fortifications of The Knights, The Theodosian Walls in Constantinople, The Great Wall in China, Himeji Castle in Japan, and Luxembourg all had legendary fortifications of the time not only making them harder to take, but even more desirable. Tell what you think.

 

[hwoosh]

I would suggest a province modifier "Exceptional Fortifications" granting +1 fort level, set to expire at a date corresponding to a certain miltech level when the medieval fortifications would be thought to become obsolete. Or, alternatively, scripted to expire whenever the player builds a more advanced fort on the province.

 

[Redashirov]

Also maybe an increased fort defensiveness.

 

[hwoosh]

Also maybe an increased fort defensiveness.

My impression has always been that fort level represents physical fortifications, while defensiveness represents environmental conditions (terrain) or aspects of the garrison's preparedness and resolve (power projection, prestige, event modifiers). But as with all EU4's abstractions, this is fuzzy.

 

[Wizzington]

Not so sure we want to do this, L3 forts are plenty hard to siege early game and the Theodosian walls would be useless in the age of star forts.

 

[hwoosh]

Not so sure we want to do this, L3 forts are plenty hard to siege early game and the Theodosian walls would be useless in the age of star forts.

I'm getting the feeling that the four fort levels, resulting in forts levels in multiples of 2 only and forever, are just not granular enough...

 

[Redashirov]

So maybe have it be a temporary modifier? I just can't grasp that Constantinople, the city that required 100000 men and 10000 cannons (one of which being the huge tzar cannon), and a blockade of galley's in such density that the entire strait was clogged with them to take (after around 6 months), has a fort strength no stronger than the neighboring Ottoman capital Edirne.

 

[Redashirov]

But I'm not saying that you should require 110000 troops to take it, because thats obviously impossible to do in the game, I'm just saying that at least some visible difference in fort strength should be evident, like the aforementioned increased fort defense or maybe just 1 extra fort level until they are obsolete.

 

[Trensicourt]

How about this suggestion?

Each and every fort can have their garrison size upgraded by a certain percentage using money. This increases the defense efficiency of the fort and the number of men needed to siege it. However, there are some draw backs to this suggestion. The higher level the garrison, the higher maintenance even while mothballing. In addition, there will be an upgrade deficiency to slowly increase the cost of the upgrade.

An example:
Constantinople can have their fort tweaked down to level 1.
Starting from that level 1 fort, we can make some serious adjustments to it, but first lets add some upgrading rules.
a) Every garrison upgrade increases the fort size by 500.
b) Every 2 garrison upgrades increases the number of troops needed to siege it by 1.
c) Every garrison upgrade increases the fort defense efficiency by 5%.

Now let's rename the fort to Fort 1A. The farther down the alphabet, the more upgraded the garrisons are.

Constantinople gets their fort upgrade to Fort 1K. That is a total of ten upgrades. I would say it is reasonable for the upgrades to cost around 3000 ducts, because the Byzantines were very rich before their decline. In other words, the first upgrade would cost around 100 ducats and the last upgrade would cost to somewhere along 300 ducats. A class J fort has the following statistics:

-2000(base)+10,000 soldiers
-3 regiments to siege + 15 regiments
-x% of defense efficiency + 50%

Close to historical right? Let's try to figure out the maintenance cost. Each upgrade increases the total maintenance cost by (level of fort=1)*(1+0.5x). This would total 6 ducts to maintain; however, Constantinople is the Byzantines' capital so it would have no maintenance cost.

I'd say this is a fairly historical attempt at trying to balance forts. However the real problem is the army size + manpower. If only army sizes could be historically increased based on region. The Farther east you go, the higher the manpower + army size. For example, Ming had around 500K or more men during the 1400s. The Ottomans had around 100K+ men and France had only around 50K most during the 1400s.

 

[net.split]

How about a special "Great Castle" building that replaces the Castle and gives +1 level compared to a normal Castle. That way it's still weaker than the Star Fort tech upgrade but stronger than the standard Castle. You can't build these; certain provinces simply start with them. In addition to the recommendations in the OP, I'd add Granada with its world wonder of a castle.

 

[grommile]

So maybe have it be a temporary modifier? I just can't grasp that Constantinople, the city that required 100000 men and 10000 cannons (one of which being the huge tzar cannon),

Wat.

• The army with which Mehmed the Conqueror besieged Constantinople numbered only fifty to eighty thousand, not a hundred thousand. Ignore the exaggerations of the defeated Christians.
  
• His artillery battery numbered a mere seventy cannon.
  
• His army took the city by storm seven weeks after arriving.

 

[Redashirov]

Wat.

• The army with which Mehmed the Conqueror besieged Constantinople numbered only fifty to eighty thousand, not a hundred thousand. Ignore the exaggerations of the defeated Christians.
  
• His artillery battery numbered a mere seventy cannon.
  
• His army took the city by storm seven weeks after arriving.

If I made a mistake then sorry, but I guess the numbers vary from source to source. Nevertheless, the walls were a monolithic and legendary structure in its time.

 

[thErgonomic]

If I made a mistake then sorry, but I guess the numbers vary from source to source. Nevertheless, the walls were a monolithic and legendary structure in its time.

Hate to break it to you, but yes they were legendary, because they had been the best walls in the world for a thousand years. They became legends because for 750 they were thought as impenetrable. That's a long time to inflate something to legendary status. Forward 250 year and the walls have been standing for 1000 years. Trust me, no matter what kind of a medieval dark age humanity has gone through it will learn to build better walls in a thousand years. Trust me, if you a person: "If you improve this then those red-haired guys with blue paint on their faces won't kill you and rape your wife.", then he'll bloody improve it. Take that and in a thousand years all those tiny improvements on wall building skills that people pass onwards will catch up even to legends.

 

[War_lord]

They were Impenetrable in the time of Stone throwing tension and weight based engines, they where fast becoming obsolete by the time of EU4 and early cannon, that's not getting into the fact that they where poorly maintained anyway due to the desperate state of what was left of the Empire.

 

[keytium]

Just want to point out that you could buff the forts without increasing their fort level. Local defensiveness increases the time per siege tick which would be a fairly good representation for Rhodes and Constantinople. As previously suggested you could have it attached to a province modifier that expires.

 

[Vogelwiese]

I also think a temporary modifier would be best to represent it. It should pass at the time where canons are invented with the optimum (no ahead of time modifier) being 1492.

 

[WeissRaben]

So maybe have it be a temporary modifier? I just can't grasp that Constantinople, the city that required 100000 men and 10000 cannons (one of which being the huge tzar cannon), and a blockade of galley's in such density that the entire strait was clogged with them to take (after around 6 months), has a fort strength no stronger than the neighboring Ottoman capital Edirne.

Six months? The siege started on the 6th of April and ended on the 29th of May - one month and three weeks, including the week or so used to take the fortresses outside Constantinople's wall.

 

[Mattius]

I suggest these special forts be their own building. For example, in Constantinople, it would say Theodosian Walls instead of castle.

 

[Trensicourt]

Why not my idea? Like I had mentioned before.

How about this suggestion?

Each and every fort can have their garrison size upgraded by a certain percentage using money. This increases the defense efficiency of the fort and the number of men needed to siege it. However, there are some draw backs to this suggestion. The higher level the garrison, the higher maintenance even while mothballing. In addition, there will be an upgrade deficiency to slowly increase the cost of the upgrade.

An example:
Constantinople can have their fort tweaked down to level 1.
Starting from that level 1 fort, we can make some serious adjustments to it, but first lets add some upgrading rules.
a) Every garrison upgrade increases the fort size by 500.
b) Every 2 garrison upgrades increases the number of troops needed to siege it by 1.
c) Every garrison upgrade increases the fort defense efficiency by 5%.

Now let's rename the fort to Fort 1A. The farther down the alphabet, the more upgraded the garrisons are.

Constantinople gets their fort upgrade to Fort 1K. That is a total of ten upgrades. I would say it is reasonable for the upgrades to cost around 3000 ducts, because the Byzantines were very rich before their decline. In other words, the first upgrade would cost around 100 ducats and the last upgrade would cost to somewhere along 300 ducats. A class J fort has the following statistics:

-2000(base)+10,000 soldiers
-3 regiments to siege + 15 regiments
-x% of defense efficiency + 50%

Close to historical right? Let's try to figure out the maintenance cost. Each upgrade increases the total maintenance cost by (level of fort=1)*(1+0.5x). This would total 6 ducts to maintain; however, Constantinople is the Byzantines' capital so it would have no maintenance cost.

I'd say this is a fairly historical attempt at trying to balance forts. However the real problem is the army size + manpower. If only army sizes could be historically increased based on region. The Farther east you go, the higher the manpower + army size. For example, Ming had around 500K or more men during the 1400s. The Ottomans had around 100K+ men and France had only around 50K most during the 1400s.