Make Ground Combat Great Again

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GuyInTheSky

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To start, what are the resources for an army? Obviously we have mineral and energy cost, and they can be an upfront cost and and an upkeep cost. With the new global food system there should also be a food upkeep cost. Citizens expect to be paid, robots need repairs, but xenomorphs just want a ridiculous amount of food.

Less obviously, some special unity may cost influence. A battalion of warrior aristocrats in a Despotic Empire may cost one influence as you are asking noble houses for their great warriors. An empire might even demand troops from its vassals or request assistance from its federation at a small cost of influence. Of course, these small influence costs may add up.

Third, we have limited room in each army. I propose that each army be a 5x5 grid of a total of 25 units. If you want to visualize what I'm talking about, think the division designer in HoI4. Some special units, for example an Anti-Grav Tank battalion, may cost two unit points. A platoon of Titanic Beasts may cost four unit points. This limitation is important because only a certain number of troops can be stationed on a planet at once. Militaristic empires may have the opportunity to research rare techs to increase the number of units in each army.

Fourth, there needs to be a manpower system. If we allow for each POP to have a fractional value, we can have there be a more long term cost to creating and losing armies. An army may have a default cost of 1% of a POP. This POP would then produce 99% of it's tile value until it regrew the 1%. We can see clearly here that the purpose of robot, slave, or clone armies is not to have merely better troops, but to bypass the manpower costs. Other ways to bypass the manpower system are to recruit mercenaries from primitives (see Earth: Final Conflict), hire mercenaries from special Enclaves, drain the manpower of your vassals, or use mechanical battalions with low manpower cost like Mech Walkers. When a planetary garrison is destroyed it takes its manpower from a random POP on the planet. This system could be used to better control the number of Titanic Beasts you can control.

The next resource is happiness. Hierarchical empires would have the option to draft citizens at the cost of happiness of that planet in exchange for a reduction in training time and resource cost. Unhappiness will also incur as manpower is removed to restore damaged armies. Militaristic empires would be less sensitive to this penalty, and pacifist empires more so. Of course, slaves, robots, and clones are all ways to bypass this penalty. If manpower from vassals or federation partners is used, they will instead receive the penalty.

The final resource is training time. Robots can be built in a day, citizens may be trained in a few months, but clones might require a great deal of time to mature. Drafting citizens will reduce training time for hierarchical empires.

From here, we can clearly see different resource strategies emerging.
-Low population empires or empires with little time use robots
-Poor, high population empires use citizens
-Empires with a lot of time to plan for war use clones.
-Empires with a large amount of excess food favor Titanic Beasts and Xenomorphs.
-Mineral rich empires use expensive Tanks, Power Armor, and Mechs.

PART 2 [Above is the first post. Below is the first edit.]

How to make ground combat less linear? How to make interesting to watch?

Instead of making a planetary invasion a single battle on the surface of a planet, let's make it a series of battles that the AI controls as it moves around the planet surface. To do this we would make the planet tiles into a sphere that armies can move on. Invading units would have to seek out and destroy the enemy garrisons. This means that speed, scouting, and formations now matter.

The different tiles would have different values for movement and defense as special defensive building that have their own slot could be built on them. Buildings like bunkers, planetary shields, anti-space weapons, or global artillery could be placed here. A bunker built under a mountain could make a humble garrison into a formidable defense against even elite troops. A regenerating shield battery could make a short battle into a prolonged siege. Enough anti-space weapons could drive off a 10k fleet.

The question arises of why wouldn't you simply liquify the ground placed defenses? The first answer is that it is possible that the defenses are strong enough to resist the assault. Rare techs will do that. The second answer is that it would kill off the population and damage buildings. You're trying to steal the planet, not make it into sausage.

The invasion itself should also be more interesting. In the game you should get technology for improved invasion. An example of primitive invasion technology is landing troop ships. Advanced invasion technology would be dropping rocket troopers from high orbit. Defensive units would be able to be equipped with anti-air weapons that could kill dropping troops while they're still in the atmosphere. Equipping anti-air weapons and improved invasion tech would be done through the army designer tool. Defensive armies in the mid-late game may even have mobile anti-space weapons to attack ships in orbit with.

Scouting would be important because each unit would have limited sight. Xeno Cavalry or Hover Bikes are ideal scouting units. Orbital units may be able to tell the locations of the enemy, but they can't tell the consistency- unless of course you have equipped your ships with the proper scanners. Of course, the enemy may counter those scanners with sensor dampening or even cloaking technology.

PART 3 [coming soon]
 
Last edited:

Gyrvendal

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All of this sounds interesting and while it may be a good way to make recruiting armies more interesting I do not see how it would make the actual ground combat much better. You would still have those obnoxious transport fleets that can get instakilled by a lucky enemy fleet. You would still have to invade and occupy 30 enemy planets for a war where you are only going to take 3-4 planets in the end, etc...

The problem with ground combat in Stellaris is that it doesn't integrate well with the other systems in the game and ultimately it is a complete sideshow because wars are always decided by fleets and not by armies.
 

Derp

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This is ridiculously overcomplicated for what should be a minor component of a space strategy game
 

Artaios Greybark

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Capturing the capital planet should give you some significant diplomatic advantages. Like capturing the ruler in Crusader Kings gives you an instant win.
 

Lady Lacroix

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Ground combat is tedious af and the worst part of the game bar none. Having to micromanage army creation/upgrading because there's no army rally flag or 'equip all' option alongside having to babysit your transport fleet because there's no way to just stick it to your fleet so you don't have to worry about it is all kinds of terrible.

Frankly I would be perfectly happy if armies were reduced to various tiers of assault and defense armies with the equipment slot removed

none of your suggestions will fix these problems.
 
Last edited:

Aythne

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This is just going to be the same circular jerkathon that the old "Ground Combat" megathread was. The game director has specfically said that if he could go back in time he would axe the mechanic entirely, citing needless micro and it not really being related to anything else in the game.

They aren't making it more complex than it already is. They certainly aren't building several mechanics that would only exist to support such a vision.
 

Drowe

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I never realised there were attachments :oops:

In many cases, ground battles don't make a lot of sense, because as long as a fleet is in orbit they can just drop KEWs on the planet until it submits. Currently building defensive armies is hardly worth the effort except for suppressing unrest following the next update. And even offensive armies are of very limited value.

In general, once your fleet power reaches a certain level, capturing planets becomes more or less an exercise in patience or a matter of resources, if you have enough patience to bomb the planetary defended it becomes very easy and if you have the resources you can just recruit more troops. You might just as well do without it and just have it done by pressing a button.

One way to simplify ground combat would be to raise troops in a similar fashion as in CK2, each planet has some number of troops you can raise. Which troops and how many you get depends on policies and the population of the planet. You could also have a standing army like CK2 retinues that are of higher quality but cost maintenance all the time, while conscripted soldiers only cost maintenance while raised.

Give combat ships the ability to load troops and you no longer need vulnerable transports, unless you want to transport reinforcements to your fleet or send them to a different planet.
 

Jamey

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This is just going to be the same circular jerkathon that the old "Ground Combat" megathread was. The game director has specfically said that if he could go back in time he would axe the mechanic entirely, citing needless micro and it not really being related to anything else in the game.
Here's hoping he invents a time machine (or axes it anyway). Ground combat detracts from the rest of the game, much like it does in every other space 4x I've played that included it.
 

Kamakaze Panda

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I really think integrated Marines or Assault Forces within Fleets may be a good idea so you can simply attack the planet with your fleets, though, the balance would have to be looked at.

Though the real problem is trying to roleplay multiple different styles of Sci-fi, ones which utilize a lot of ground combat and those that basically say Space is King.

Really I think simplified ground combat is the way to go.
 

tobias.mb

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I think an easy way to make ground combat more meaningful would be:
1) Instead of all armies loosing hp at the same time, the damage should be focused on a few armies at a time. This way armies will actually die and need to be rebuild instead of playing 200 years with the same 20 armies, recruited for that first war 20 years into the game.
2) Troop carriers should cost Fleet Cap. This makes more powerful armies actually worth something. (currently you can conquer everything just fine with basic assault armies - just take 30 or so and even a planet with 12 defense armies stands no chance.) As a side benefit this would give the defender in early wars a little advantage.
3) Army attachments are currently almost un-useable. There needs to be some way to equip all selected armies at once. I doubt I'm the only one who ignores them currently, simply because it is too annoying (meaning micro intensive) to equip them one at a time.
 

Hyomoto

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I think the ground combat can be meaningful. We want it to be simple enough that it doesn't require hardcore micro-management, but also actually matter. Something I find interesting is the 'purge' button. I know it's going away in some ways, but when you drop in an assault army, don't you find it a little weird that you are forced to take the planet through a war goal and not just through a systematic eradication of the current population? Hell, even on your own planets shouldn't you send in a armed force? It seems like fertile ground for both dealing with purges and handling the aspects of ground combat. I think the individual armies are okay to some extent, but wouldn't it be more interesting if you needed to choose where to land?

Think about it this way. Let's say each tile wasn't restricted to a single upgrade. Maybe instead each plot of ground has a limited amount of potential for you to exploit. Like, rather than minerals being a bonus, it reflects a capacity for infrastructure. So you create buildings as before, but now you have a little more room to deal with tiles. Perhaps you maximize some out with farms, or cluster together power plants. However, you also have the ability to add in those special buildings like shield generators, military academies and the like. As time goes on you basically end up with 'strong' and 'weak' parts of the planet. When it's time to station armies, you station them around your planet. Most likely you'll have some military bases to keep them to reduce their upkeep. When an invader comes along, they need to strike where you are weak to get a foothold and then try to push into your more strongly fortified areas. As the defender you keep pushing troops out of your bases as long as you have resources, buildings and pops to produce them while the attacker is forced to bring them in from outside. Perhaps wars of liberation or reclamation are a little easier as the pops may want to be saved, where incursions are harder as every pop is a potential threat. If you are purging the population, you can bet they'll resist you harder, and you might choose a scorched earth invasion plan. While that will make things easier, it also damages infrastructure as well. Who is to say the defender can't choose to fight that way as well? Hell, particularly violent wars may even damage tile potential making contested worlds worthless after repeated wars. From our perspective, we choose our invasion plan for an army and give it a place to touch down. However, a lot of thought goes into that action. How big of an army do you send? Where do you invade from? Do you use massive orbital strikes to weaken your enemy at the risk of damaging your prize? Obviously a war of liberation is much harder now as you need to take the planet more or less intact to succeed.

Obviously this is just a vague concept, but it shows that ground wars don't have to be micromanagement affairs and still provide stimulating gameplay. Ground war should be an important consideration. I think they could use some work, but I'd be sad to see them go.
 
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methegrate

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First and foremost, planets would need some sort of space defenses.

Personally I'm not convinced that ground combat should be part of a space game. It's just fiddly as-is, and all of the suggestions so far feel needlessly complicated. I've never seen it done well, imho.

But as mentioned above, wars are decided by fleets, not armies. Whoever holds the system will eventually take the planet. Extra ground combat mechanics would just encourage players to spam transports. "I could figure out this super complicated tactical battle... or I could just build 20 more armies."

The only way that changes is if planets can fight back and drive off even large fleets. Then there'd be a reason to play the game and take the surface quickly. Like I said, I'm not convinced that's necessary, but it would have to be the first step.
 

Gaarq

gamma tester
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Jan 24, 2005
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what bothers me more than boring battles is their pointlessness. if i am not wrong, there is only limited amount of defending troops being able to sit on a planet. any "surplus" is kicked into orbit. whereas the number of invading troops landing is unlimited. so, with a pure overkill troop fleet, i can capture any planet i want, but i cannot defend any of mine on ground against such an overkill. did i get anything wrong?