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Nikolaz72

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Genoa these days 100% of the time starts out rivaled with Byzantium, with Venice often doing so aswell. Historically however Genoan and Venetian Troops and Ships and Money were the only ally Byzantium had in its last days as an independent nation. Even as Venice turned their backs, Genoa at least gave them some faint hope of winning the battle by turning away the Ottoman fleet.

Byzantium survival tactics become increasingly gamey and as a result there is justification for removing the methods used to survive, recently this is seen by the size of the Ottoman fleet being increased each successive patch, thus making it impossible for the Byzantines to beat it single handedly with the only ally that is likely to join in being the numerically inferior hungary and balkan states, neither with a fleet to match Ottomans some 50 ships.

Making Byzantium survival difficult is reasonable, more than reasonable even. However forcing Genoan rivalry is making it ahistorically difficult, instead do the very opposite. Give Genoa a historical friendship modifier with Byzantium, these nations should be friends for the last battle.

I'd go as far as to say toss Venice one aswell. Byzantium had an alliance with both Venice and Genoa, though Venice famously declined the call to battle by refusing a huge number of the ships they had otherwise promised (Providing tens instead of hundreds).

As a result of all these attempts to make Byzantium harder and harder to succeed as, they often fall several years before they did historically. Very, very fast making Ottoman expansion into the Balkans much faster than historical.

Suggestions.
1: Byzantium at the end had an alliance with Venice and Genoa, use the historical friendship modifier to mimic this and deny them the right to make Byzantium a rival.
2: Lock the City of Worlds Desire/Conquer Southern Greece missions until after 1449-1450 for the Ottomans.

Alternatively:
Have Genoa be a historical friend of Byzantium Empire with the Venitian Merchant Republic guaranteeing them.

This will make survival as the Purple Phoenix less reliant on gamey tactics and more on clever strategy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
 
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talilu

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No need to make them Historical Friends, they can be set as allies in historical setup since they didn't have this "extremely faithful" kind of relationship. As we all know, Venice screwed up Byzantium and Genoa kept supressing the local lords/emperor for the Aegean Islands.
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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I'm not sure about Genoa but Venice being historical friends with Byzantium is highly ahistorical - the fourth crusade was the main reason for the Eastern Roman Empire to fall, more so: I think Venice should have historical rival modifier with BYZ, even though they helped them in their last war(the Commonwealth and Russia had a few alliances in history, so did France and England/Britain).
Should Genoa and Venice be allied to Byzantium in the start date I'd leave to devs, but Venice certainly wasn't a friend of the Empire.

And I'm saying this as a moderate Byzantine fan myself, trying to survive as Greeks every major patch.
 
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Chlodio

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I would just make Genoa and Venice guarantee the Roman Empire, Genoa and Venice wanted secure their trade with the Romans, because the Turks could't be trusted, thus they Genoase and Venetians sent significant force help the garrison, unfortunately only thing that kept the Greeks, Venetians and Genoase from fighting each other was one Genoase commander, after he was mortally wounded and forced to retreat the city fell.

I don't think they should be historical friends, but making Venice historical rival with the Roman Empire would be silly, with EU4's historical rival logic they would't have ever helped them.

If the Turks attack they will still win against the Greeks, Venetians and Genoase.
 

Nikolaz72

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Indeed Chlodio. Though I'd make Genoa historical friends and Venice guarantee, reason for this is that despite shitty odds, Genoa did not pull out.

The merchant republics could exert influence over the 'empire' which was at that point just an important city state for trade. They could not exert their influence to nearly the same extend on the Ottoman Empire.

They have plenty reasons for entering the final war and they never do. It needs some serious fixing.
 

R'hllor

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The fourth crusade was well over 200 years prior to the Grande Finale of the Roman Empire, and thus hardly relevant in 1444/1453. I'd make Genoa and Venice allied with Byzantium in both starts by default and they can then break it if they so choose - though if they desire Byzantium provinces that would probably happen most of the time, I'm not sure if they have that modifier.
 

R'hllor

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The fourth crusade was well over 200 years prior to the Grande Finale of the Roman Empire, and thus hardly relevant in 1444/1453. I'd make Genoa and Venice allied with Byzantium in both starts by default and they can then break it if they so choose - though if they desire Byzantium provinces that would probably happen most of the time, I'm not sure if they have that modifier.
 

Cossack_PL

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I see another reason why Genoa should be Historical Friends with Byzantium. I have seen them at least twice gain claims on Constantinople (probably through "Claims of our rivals" event) and annex Byzantium before Ottomans, which seriously screwed the Ottoman AI (obviously any attempt to conquer Constantinople then would result in massive war with HRE).
 

Necurok

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I was just about to make a post about the same topic.

Byzantinum even begged the Pope to help them get more ships from venice. In return for that favor the Pope wanted to unify the churches again and Konstantin even agreed (although he had no choice)
 
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123e55

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Good ideea!
And hey, shouldn't Trebizond be historical ally of Byzantium too?
 

123e55

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No, Trebizond claimed to be the Roman Empire as Byzanitum did. They were mostly rivals.
Ooh!
I said that because they were released by byzantium(or something like that??) and I thought they were friends
 

talilu

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Komnenoi was the ruling family when Latins destroyed ERE. ERE splitted into 3 parts;

Trebizond Empire ruled by the old emperors, the Komnenoi (conquered in 1461)

Empire of Nicea (conquered in 1453, in 1460 if we count Morea)

Despotate of Epirus (conquered in 1479)

Although Trebizond's claim was more relevant, Nicea managed to reconquer the old Greek lands and "formed" ERE again.
 
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celethiel

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I don't know about this, but doesn't Moskovy/russia claim the 3rd Rome title after marrying a byzantine Imperial Daughter? Mind you i have no idea when this had happened.