Make factorys and resource extraction cost manpower?

[sterrius]

HOI 4 have a very good surplus of manpower allowing for very ahistorical armys with a very big size.
We also know this is partially to allow minors to have manpower and keep the game a sandbox.

But why not try to fix this using other methods? One that was really realistic.

Right now in HOi4 factorys and resources are "free". They are operated by magic and demand 0 people.

but one of the key problems every country faced in real life was being able to manage Workforce vs Fighting force. As they both pull from the same population pool.
That would bring some very interesting situations as a single factory at the time could easily cost thousands of people and this was a real problem for most countrys.


For example: If every 1 resource extracted costed 2000 people. A country like the US, USSR and Germany would easily lose hundreds of thousands of people to pure resource extration.
Specially the US that have a absoluty ton of manpower and resources right now and no real interest in importing resources like it did on real life to save manpower.

And factorys could also cost something beetween 1000 to 5000 manpower. ( its a mechanic that basically just need tuning, not very hard to implement or understand).

Now why such high numbers?

Because thats also a era of mechanization. Meaning technology would reduce part of the burden.

The mining techs could each reduce manpower needed for resources by something like 10%
And industrial tech that increase factory performance would do the same for factorys and dockyards. (And refinery tech for refinerys).

I Think this is a subtle and realistic way of basically managing the excess manpower of majors without heavy penalizing the minors. As they rely much more on imports and never have absurd amount of factorys to really matter. So the impact on a minor like greece is minimal.


The good part is this mechanic does not demand clicks or you looking crazy at a number somewhere. Its a complex but at same time, simple mechanic that just demand planning. (And 36-39 is a huge part of the game like it or not).


I actually found a very interest work about workforce in 1962. Was very easy to find so it means that should not be difficulty to also find one paper about this in the correct period.
https://www.npc.org/reports/1963-Petroleum_and_Gas_Industry_Manpower_Requirements.pdf

US used 764.000 people for its oil and gas industry in 1962. Producing around 6 million barrels of oil compared to 4 million barrels in 1940 US.
While this does ignore thousands of variables, we can have a small idea of how much people where used to keep the oil in the US flowing during 1940.

We can do similar things with other resources, and finally do more or less the same for industry,

But how about countrys having different technology and mechanization process?
Well, we do have a tech tree with Mining tech and Industrial tech,

Making them give a small bonus reduction in total manpower used for factorys would be implemented. That would be kind of "meh" for industrial tech as you already want them anyway.
But would give you another reason to get mining techs. It might be useful to get a few extra thousand manpower by releasing them from the mines.

Posting on general before posting on ideas because i want to see what people think about it .

 

[1 Star General]

Shortly - I like it. I it's actually a fairly simple addition that would really deepen the 'grand strategy' layer of the game.

 

[Secret Master]

Right now in HOi4 factorys and resources are "free". They are operated by magic and demand 0 people.

When it comes to factories, they really aren't. It's just that the game makes it look free.

Example:

Let's say you implement Service by Requirement. Well, that right there is a 10% penalty to all IC output. While the math means it's not a flat 10% (because it stacks with IC techs), Service by Requirement essentially cancels out an entire IC tech.

So, you got your manpower, but it sure as Hell isn't free. You paid for it. And since its a percentage of output, not an absolute number of factories lost, that means you potentially lose a ton of factory equivalents.

You might argue that the existing laws are too generous with the manpower they provide, and you might argue that there needs to be something between All Adults Serve and Scraping the Barrel (that's a huge jump in manpower), but anyone conscripting tons of manpower faces the consequences in terms of reduced economic output.

As for resources, I'll let you think for a minute why it is unlikely that a "manpower to resource" mechanic will ever be implemented, especially when it comes to occupied territories.

 

[squid_hills]

I'm not a fan of this proposal. It would do nothing at all to impact the manpower of monsters like the US or USSR, but it would absolutely wreck France and Greece, as well as most other minors. France has a manpower problem, but abundant resources and factories. If both cost manpower to utilize, you would be left with an even sharper manpower shortage than you already have, leaving you potentially unable to hold the Germans no matter how well you plan and prepare. You're just going to run out of men faster. Plus, as Secret Master points out, increasing your conscription level can lead to a production death-spiral, as you need more factories to compensate for the sharp production penalties, which eat more of your manpower. The UK would be in a similar situation to France.

Greece has a lot of resources for such a tiny country, but not a lot of manpower. If you spend men to extract your resources, you have less to fill your army, which restricts your army size even further than your low manpower pool already does.

Even countries with few resources escape this problem, because they have to produce extra Civ factories (and spend manpower) just to trade them to get the resources they need to feed their MILs (again using manpower).

Already a lot of players go fascist when playing minors, because of the massive manpower boost. But it is still entirely possible to play a minor and get sh** done as Communist, Neutral or Democracy. If a manpower for industry mechanic were implemented, fascist would be the only viable option to play minors as, since that would be the only government that would provide sufficient manpower to offset your ever-rising industrial costs.

 

[Whoman69]

I would argue that they are not the same pool. You can have men and women working in the factories up to 60 years of age or more. The age of those eligible for combat go up to about 30, or if you're desperate, higher. You would also have people that are ineligible for the military but otherwise able to find work.

 

[Ffire]

The real problem is that you don't get any production penalties until you have mobilized 10% of your population (20% of all mens, including elders and childrens).

You should get productions penalties for each % of manpower on the fied, that would be simpler than requiring MP for factories.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

I think the Expert AI-Mod for this Version has build in such a limitation for big Countrys if I remember me correctly.

USSR, USA, China and such big states can´t spam the World Map anymore with inefficent troops you can turn on / off.

The Moderator is right. The Limitation for your Troops and Reserve is from the Law which you have (Australia can only build up 1 or 2 Devisions with his Limitations until 1940 / 1941, Canada too etc.).

With Germany you can build up the Army, Navy and Airforce like it was before WW 2 and in WW 2. With Japan, Italy and other European states I tried the same. With the Manpower you have you can build up exactly the Manpower the Nations had in Reality with all Support and Standard-Troops they had.

 

[realCuervo]

Don't know if this is a good idea. But I think women in factory decision will reduce the "manpower" requirement and be a good reflection of female role in the war.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

That´s an Thing I thougt for too realCuervo.

There are Countrys with Focusses that uses that Reflection earlyer or later (Spain with a female General, Australia, USSR and 2 others I don´t remember with Manpower from Females).

Females too come in the Agency, which is a similar use in the War-Role.

Both are a good start to integrate Females in Military. And the first Females which trained Military Pilots were American in WW1.

 

[Ethereld]

It is already present, all countries have a total population number, of which you have a % of recruitable population which represents those "adults" that are not currently on war material production and thus are eligible for military service.

When the higher manpower laws start having a productivity impact is precisely to represent that you are taking manpower from those people that are currently in key industries.

On that regard it would make no sense to take people from the military able population to work on the factories.

 

[Ffire]

It is already present, all countries have a total population number, of which you have a % of recruitable population which represents those "adults" that are not currently on war material production and thus are eligible for military service.

When the higher manpower laws start having a productivity impact is precisely to represent that you are taking manpower from those people that are currently in key industries.

On that regard it would make no sense to take people from the military able population to work on the factories.

All the adults taken for military are adults that do not produce anything economically speaking AND cost to the nation (to feed, house, equip and supply them). There should be penalties from the very first % of them on your civilian industry.

Just imagine in your actual country what should be the consequence to take 1/10 of the workers (that's roughly a 5% mobilization level) out of the workforce, and ask the 9 others to give away part of their production (to represent the cost of feeding, housing, fabricating equipment and supplying that guy).

 

[Ethereld]

All the adults taken for military are adults that do not produce anything economically speaking AND cost to the nation (to feed, house, equip and supply them). There should be penalties from the very first % of them on your civilian industry.

Just imagine in your actual country what should be the consequence to take 1/10 of the workers (that's roughly a 5% mobilization level) out of the workforce, and ask the 9 others to give away part of their production (to represent the cost of feeding, housing, fabricating equipment and supplying that guy).

On the economical level it is true that any kind of military mobilization will have an economic effect. But that cost on earlier levels of mobilization normally come on a severe impact on the quality of life of the civilian population as consumer goods become scarce, even food production and distribution is affected.

But on a general level wise countries (not Russia in WW1) tries to not recruit any civilian that is working on key industries. So the penalty on production on the game reflects when the nation start taking people from those industries instead of unemployed young mans, your neighbour that worked on the convenience store or the guy that worked on a beer factory.

I am all in into representing that having divisions on the field have an economic cost, but the solution is not to make factories take people from the recruitable population pool when they precisely represent those who are not working in those key industries.

 

[Davy D]

I think the problem is more that conscription laws beyond "Service by Requirement" exist. After recruiting 10% of your population (i.e. 20% of your males) there shouldn't combat fit person left in your country as you already conscripted every male between the ages of 18 and 30. Any conscription beyond that should result in a drop in combat effectiveness of newly raised divisions (perpetually green division, organisation penalties etc).
As far the military industrial production for the countries involved in the WWII, it continued to rise for most Major Countries until the very end (I believe Germany reached peak production in '44).
I think this will solve the division spam for the AI as it doesn't mind having millions of casualties.

 

[DukofDeth]

There needs to be a boon to remaining on the lower conscription laws longer. Right now there's no difference between volunteer and limited conscription except for how many people you get. Volunteer should result in superior units - better overall morale, better organization and maybe even better attack and defense. Maybe the reinforce rate could be better, or speed. An all-volunteer force should be better in all aspects, except sheer numbers.

 

[Harin]

An all-volunteer force should be better in all aspects, except sheer numbers.

And VERY expensive.

A volunteer military that offers conscription level wages, lodging, and perks attracts very few true volunteers.

To attract sufficient soldiers with just decent credentials, the military must offer a much higher quality of life than conscription laws have to provide. Competition with the private sector is real. The cost would escalate dramatically as the country tried to attract any reasonable number of volunteers that could offer more than a speed bump to a conscripted military that is preparing for conflict.

It can and has been done, but the budgetary cost is much higher than most would believe. In the game, the only currency that exists to cover such non-kinetic costs would be civilian factories. A volunteer force trying to reach 0.5 to 1.0 percent of the population would require tax expenditures that could be simulated in game by increasing the percentage of civilian factories committed to consumer goods. It would be weird to call this expenditure consumer goods, but with the current mechanics, it is the easiest fix.

 

[Simon Marques]

I comment on this in my post, please read my proposal as well, I suggested an improvement in the economics system of the game where civil factories should produce food, the more factories the more food supply in the domestic market your nation will have and especially more jobs will generate, and the less dissatisfied the citizens will be. In my proposal I suggest that parties of socialist ideology (Fascism and Communism) can only rise to power in nations with economic or social instability, that is, nations with high levels of unemployment tend to adhere more to fascism and communism. I think your idea is complementary to my idea, so I really liked your proposal.

That's how Russia joined communism and Germany joined Fascism, unemployment generated discontent in the population beyond the feeling of revanchism, and they ended up being deluded by the utopian ideas of fascism and communism. The armed forces have reserves, so I think man power has more to do with this reserve. The factories demand civilian workers who would be another type of manpower, the unemployed.

If you couldn't buy food for lack of food on the market shelves, you wouldn't be happy, in World War II it wasn't different in the countries that participated, so little food offer could also generate dissatisfaction of the people, which reduces the support for the war.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

I suggested an improvement in the economics system of the game where civil factories should produce food, the more factories the more food supply in the domestic market your nation will have and especially more jobs will generate, and the less dissatisfied the citizens will be.

Food has been suggested in the past and rejected because the lack of food causes starvation deaths, one of those subjects that Paradox doesn't want discussed.

 

[Simon Marques]

Food has been suggested in the past and rejected because the lack of food causes starvation deaths, one of those subjects that Paradox doesn't want discussed.

Right, they could create two game modes, a simplified mode and a realistic mode, so everyone would be happy, both those who like micro management and those who do not. Before starting a new campaign, just select the mode you want to play, if you choose the simplified mode, the system disables all advanced mechanics leaving the game perfect for casual players or those who do not like complex games.

Besides the paradox is losing money, because it could be displaying the logos of companies like Porch, Boing, Ford among other industries that should appear in the game (I'm not sure if you have this in the game), by displaying the logo, you would be automatically doing advertising and they could make a deal with these companies, this would generate a little extra income. Opening space for advertising also in the load screens, but limiting the display of historical advertisements of the time.

 

[Znail]

All the adults taken for military are adults that do not produce anything economically speaking AND cost to the nation (to feed, house, equip and supply them). There should be penalties from the very first % of them on your civilian industry.

Just imagine in your actual country what should be the consequence to take 1/10 of the workers (that's roughly a 5% mobilization level) out of the workforce, and ask the 9 others to give away part of their production (to represent the cost of feeding, housing, fabricating equipment and supplying that guy).

Only something like 10% or less of workers work in actual production right now, the rest in service related jobs. The main effect of having 1/10th in the military would be longer ques for hair cuts and less people working at mcdonalds.

There needs to be a boon to remaining on the lower conscription laws longer. Right now there's no difference between volunteer and limited conscription except for how many people you get. Volunteer should result in superior units - better overall morale, better organization and maybe even better attack and defense. Maybe the reinforce rate could be better, or speed. An all-volunteer force should be better in all aspects, except sheer numbers.

Actually, conscript army tends to be better as then people with good prospects will join as well instead of mostly the ones that can't get other jobs. You don't get many potential elite athletes or university students as volunteers.

 

[grommile]

Right, they could create two game modes, a simplified mode and a realistic mode, so everyone would be happy, both those who like micro management and those who do not. Before starting a new campaign, just select the mode you want to play, if you choose the simplified mode, the system disables all advanced mechanics leaving the game perfect for casual players or those who do not like complex games.

You seem to have misunderstood.

You may have noticed that dropping an atomic bomb on a country has no effect on its population, and no effect on its manpower beyond the losses caused by damage to military units.

This is because Paradox do not want democide (mass killing by the state, whether it falls under the specific heading of genocide or not) in their game, nor do they want historical democides discussed on their forum.

Hence, it should be fairly clear that food mechanics are on the "stroll on, mate" list.

Besides the paradox is losing money, because it could be displaying the logos of companies like Porch, Boing, Ford among other industries that should appear in the game (I'm not sure if you have this in the game),

Historical logos of Porsche, Boeing, and an assortment of other famous companies are already in the game. If you haven't noticed them, either you weren't paying attention or you've never played Germany, the USA, France, the USSR, or the UK