Make Clone Vats easier to get

[Munqaxus]

Could we lessen the requirements for Clone Vats some, so that it doesn't set you so far behind when roleplaying a purely organic society? Compared to how quickly you get Robotic Workers, which only takes 2 techs and costs 5 Energy; Clone Vats require an Ascension perk, 2 techs, you have to hit level 3 techs and costs 2 Energy and 30 food. This just sets you so far behind if you want to roleplay an organic species that isn't one of the speciality races.

 

[ezno]

I keep saying that Bio Assembly should start at Gene Clinics, which is on schedule with Robot Assembly.

They should probably give 0.5 pop assembly per job, to make them equals to robots late game, but could be advantaged with combination with clone vats

 

[HFY]

They should probably give 0.5 pop assembly per job, to make them equals to robots late game, but could be advantaged with combination with clone vats

Yeah, somewhere between 0.5 and 1.0 per job.

Stacks with Clone Vats, and that stacking replaces the current +% bonus which Gene Clinic gives to Clone Vats.

 

[GOLANX]

I keep saying that Bio Assembly should start at Gene Clinics, which is on schedule with Robot Assembly.

It doesn't make sense that you would get access to Cloning before you get the tech literally named Cloning. Depending on how far you take the clone trait they would be better than droids, and you can have them as chattle slaves. Without sterility they could add to pop growth too which would bonus your growth potential over robots. With base clone able to do what base droid can do and also slavery that's what it should be compared to. And I wouldn't want the trait to restrict worker jobs either that's also too close to how robots do it, maybe they could make cloning a T1 tech and just have synth ascension use cloning prior to completing their ascension?

 

[ezno]

Yeah, somewhere between 0.5 and 1.0 per job.

Stacks with Clone Vats, and that stacking replaces the current +% bonus which Gene Clinic gives to Clone Vats.

1 per job would means 4 per lv2 building, and it would be way more powerful compared to robots

 

[HFY]

It doesn't make sense that you would get access to Cloning before you get the tech literally named Cloning.

Bio-Assembly isn't the same as cloning.

We have in-vitro fertilization technology today (and we have had for a while) which isn't cloning.


EDIT:

1 per job would means 4 per lv2 building, and it would be way more powerful compared to robots

Yeah.

Maybe 1.0 if Robot Assembly Plant gets an upgrade form (2 jobs for 4 growth total).

 

[GOLANX]

Bio-Assembly isn't the same as cloning.

We have in-vitro fertilization technology today (and we have had for a while) which isn't cloning.

I wouldn't call in-vitro Bio-Assembly, at least not as It is used today. In-vitro Fertilization helps otherwise Sterile Couples to have children, I have an family member that performs the operation for a living. It is not used for industrial scale human production. The same techniques for in-vitro are used for cloning anyways, it's not a big step, how do you think they made dolly the sheep? The big remaining step for humanity is an artificial womb that can carry a child to term, and a Researcher who can accept the ethical consequences of failure. Or you could also have slaves that you keep having babies that would totally work, but you don't need a Gene Clinic for that.

 

[HFY]

I wouldn't call in-vitro Bio-Assembly, at least not as It is used today.

We grow human ears on pigs. We are doing a very limited form of bio-assembly without clones right now.

We are also (today) increasing population by non-clone in-vitro fertilization.

Neither bio assembly nor +pop growth requires clones.

 

[GOLANX]

We grow human ears on pigs. We are doing a very limited form of bio-assembly without clones right now.

Not a whole human yet, when we grow a whole human in a pig uterus then you can call it assembly

We are also (today) increasing population by non-clone in-vitro fertilization.

Which increases the ability of a female to have children eg +pop growth its not assembly. Assembly implies the lack of parents involvement (beyond basic genetic material) in the conception and rearing of the child, in-vitro requires parents for both.

Neither bio assembly nor +pop growth requires clones.

Sure but cloning uses the same techniques and is at the same tech level as in-vitro. Hives do bio assembly through breeder pops and theoretically slaver states could do the same thing, breeder slaves would be an interesting game mechanic.

 

[HFY]

Not a whole human yet, when we grow a whole human in a pig uterus then you can call it assembly

Nobody is calling that full pop assembly.

We're not able to do FTL in space yet, of course we don't have pop assembly.

My point is that we currently can do things that are like pop assembly and NOT CLONING.

Cloning is not identical to pop assembly.

Do you get that? If so then we can move the discussion forward.

 

[ezno]

Nobody is calling that full pop assembly.

We're not able to do FTL in space yet, of course we don't have pop assembly.

My point is that we currently can do things that are like pop assembly and NOT CLONING.

Cloning is not identical to pop assembly.

Do you get that? If so then we can move the discussion forward.

Yes, the idea is to make them add pop assembly as pop creation type, but we can rename the category, it just means the flat amount how pop grow, used by rebots or biological

 

[Munqaxus]

Hmm, maybe an empire policy? Faster bio production and "lesser" clones, or slower production and you get normal pops.

Having bio ascension match or exceed synth ascension in pop growth would be good imo, since robots can ignore habitability and get a global +10% robot output. Although I suspect that adjusting that balance falls more on nerfing synth ascension than in buffing bio too much. As for psionic, I 100% agree. They shouldn't get any significant sources of extra pop growth.

I've always thought that organics would produce faster than robots anyway. Robots would need a factory to produce more robots, where as each Organic is it's own Organic making factory.

 

[GOLANX]

I've always thought that organics would produce faster than robots anyway. Robots would need a factory to produce more robots, where as each Organic is it's own Organic making factory.

Whatt????

I mean yes you don't have to make bones and hearts and muscles to slap together. First you need a facility to mass produce eggs (which is easier said than done) you fertilize an egg in a Petri Dish using in vitro techniques (we currently have the basic technology for this but not at scale), making sure to use a diversity of DNA profiles to prevent genetic diseases, you also have to worry about incest and its problems as clones are produced at scale, which means arranged marriages or more likely sterilization, unless you gene ascend in which case who cares DNA is your play thing.

Fertilized Zygotes need to be introduced into an artificial Womb so they can mature a process that will still probably take months with perfectly apportioned food/nutrients that has to be supplied. Growing the clone to adulthood would still likely take years depending on how long you expect the clones to last, again genetic ascension would solve a lot of problems and could accelerate the process more. All that is why I keep saying there would be an imperfect cloning trait.

I think building Robotics with a variety of different materials required for construction, and the different bits and pieces to put it together that are just added to the assembly line. Individual parts wouldn't take long and are assembled quickly, complex machines might take a day or 2 from start to finish like a car today.

So I would say robots build faster overall while cloning is a more long term project

 

[joe9594]

they need a serious reduction in food cost for what they do. without the artificial throttle that is a lot of food for one pop, assuming 3 ticks per month you will spend nearly 1k in food

The cost is fine, it is actually almost exactly the same as making robots. 30 food means 5 pops producing food.
Making robots takes 5 energy upkeep (about 1 pop on that), 1 pop actually doing the assembly job, 2/3 of a pop working to make alloys (since 2 required by the job and a pop produces 3), alloys also need 2 minerals for each one produced, so need 4 minerals that is a miner. So that is about 3 and 2 thirds pops producing 2 units of robot growth where 5 farmer pops produce the resources for 3 cloning growth. So if anything robots are a bit more expensive (especially given that it uses more higher strata pops and that there are more production bonuses available for food than for most of the jobs being used for the robot), also they can only get 2 growth as their max (base) while cloning gives 3.

 

[Nebbie Zebbie]

Months later, and now we actually get an origin that starts with an upgraded form of Clone Vats...and the original ones are still kinda bad and come too late. Yeah, we could really do with the "Cloning" technology not just be a pop growth modifier, it's so dumb.

 

[Munqaxus]

Months later, and now we actually get an origin that starts with an upgraded form of Clone Vats...and the original ones are still kinda bad and come too late. Yeah, we could really do with the "Cloning" technology not just be a pop growth modifier, it's so dumb.

"Clone Vats" would definitely be something that Organic civilizations would develop really early on, probably sooner than FTL and probably about the same time as Robotics. And just for roleplaying purposes, it kind of sucks that you feel forced to make robots for your Xenophobic Organic Species that you see in your mind as hating everyone, including robots.

 

[GhostDanny]

Making full clones of people can be a bit of debate in most societies.
Are the clones considered their own being or are they merely property of the original?
Or are clones only allowed, if the original died in an accident?

 

[HFY]

Is this thread necromancy intended to showcase how zombies are a form of early pop assembly?

 

[GOLANX]

Making full clones of people can be a bit of debate in most societies.
Are the clones considered their own being or are they merely property of the original?
Or are clones only allowed, if the original died in an accident?

If I make 5 billion clones of myself can I use them to unilaterally declare myself the Emperor or all Mankind? Are clones paid for with taxes or do they need to pay off their debt for me making them? What recourse do I have if they all vote for the blorg party? Why are my tax dollars going to make clones if they aren't going to be slaves Prisoners with jobs?

This is why I support the idea of pre evolution AP clones being a stunted subspecies that can't add to pop growth.

 

[Gui10]

Making full clones of people can be a bit of debate in most societies.
Are the clones considered their own being or are they merely property of the original?
Or are clones only allowed, if the original died in an accident?

Wouldn't a clone (a new human with the same DNA as someone else) be the equivalent of an identical twin? Why would they be property?

I do consider there would be debate around whether to use clones (or even just vatgrown humans) to bolster the population, but I would place it closer to the debate around designer babies. Is it right to allow that kind of control (the likelihood of developing some personality traits, diseases, physical characteristics, habilities, etc.)? If the government is doing it, whose genetics should be used? If the vatgrown are superior (less genetic defects, enhanced health, perhaps even enhanced intelligence/stamina/lifespan), how do you deal with regular reproduction being inferior? If they are inferior, is it right to bring them to the world knowing they will always find themselves lacking in comparison?

 

[GhostDanny]

Wouldn't a clone (a new human with the same DNA as someone else) be the equivalent of an identical twin? Why would they be property?

As someone could just clone themselves, so they have spare organs if one of theirs break or something along those lines.
Which would make clones property of the original. There is a movie about it as well I believe, the island?