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Basileios Makedon

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MAJOR SUGGESTIONS #1 : TRIBES AND HORDES

Hi ! I have a bunch of suggestions to make, but it would be too long to post them on the same thread. So now I’ll show my suggestions concerning tribes and hordes:

Tribes:

First of all, I’ll say that when I speak of tribes I’m referring to North American Tribes, Animist South American Tribes, and southern African tribes.

I think that it’s completely unhistorical that the tribes have to recruit their units with money. They didn’t have any money! So I think this could replace it:

Loyalty:

It’s a new value that measures how loyal are the members of the tribe to the current ruler. It’s earned winning wars, raising stability, winning battles, and with trade. But losing wars, high War Exhaustion, low stability and prestige, new rulers, low tech compared to neighbouring tribes can decrease it. You can spend loyalty in recruiting units and ships, privateering, rising your trade power and in westernization. Low loyalty will have negative effects in your morale, discipline and unrest. This mechanic ends at adm tech 10. You can still gain money, and spend it in raise loyalty.


Hordes:

Currently, the hordes are just undeveloped countries, and that’s only at the endgame. The game represents it at states, but they weren’t, they were an horde of cavalry and archers that controlled a territory and wanted to go west. So as an horde, you shouldn’t have armies. Read more:

Armies:

Before you attack someone, you’ll have to declare hostilities with them. Then you have a year to call your men, call men of other tribes and mercenaries. Armies will spawn in your territory, near the border with the defender if possible. The amount of men that will spawn will depend on:

-Your prestige.

-Your total development.

-The total development of the defender.

-Your power projection.

Then, after a year, you declare war and you’ll be able to use the men that you have recruited. When the war ends, the army will be dissolved, unless they declared war on you when you were fighting. When someone declares war on you, you press the button “call the horde” and an army with the same amount of units as your army forcelimit will spawn. You can still recruit mercenaries. This is until your total tech level reaches 13.

Horde Route:

This is a small suggestion concerning AI hordes. I think there should be a route scripted for them, depending on where’s their capital there should be a province route that the hordes will likely follow:

-One goes from the Altai to Persia

-One goes from the modern Kazakhstan to Europe, the Black Sea and Moscow.

-The last one would go from Mongolia, Manchuria and Oirat to China.

Abandon province:

As an horde, similar to Siberian tribes you should be able to migrate. So in the decisions screen there’s a decision to abandon each province. When the province is abandoned, it will grant you a “nomadic clan”, a special type of colonist that can only be used one time. So you can abandon a province ( converting it a colonisable one ) and colonize another, similar to the horde movements. You can’t colonize provinces across a sea or strait using the “nomadic clan”. You can abandon a province just while you are a steppe horde, so when reforming the government you won’t be able to do it anymore.


OK That’s all! Please constructive criticism ;)
 
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Basileios Makedon

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The hordes would be unplayable and too easy to kill with no army.
That's one of the objectives, stop large hordes surviving until the endgame and make them a challenge for players
 

Vaximillian

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If you are suggesting to nerf hordes even more, no need to bother: Paradox has probably already got it covered and is doing fine on its own.
 

tobias.mb

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Hordes are weak as Hell already. No need to nerf them.
Also it seems you are under a misconception about the nature of these "Hordes". By the 15th century the nomadic part of them was really only about moving cattle from one pasture to another. For the most part they lived in permanent settlements. They had different administrative structures than europeans and different ideas about how to govern their lands, but they certainly were established states.
Your idea of a Horde is at least 1000 years out of date at the beginning of the game.

As for Tribes: do you honestly think, they did not have a form of currency (even if it might not have been gold / silver coins)? What about all the gold the spanish stole from the Maya, Aztec and Inca?
 

Itchel

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Hordes are weak as Hell already. No need to nerf them.
Also it seems you are under a misconception about the nature of these "Hordes". By the 15th century the nomadic part of them was really only about moving cattle from one pasture to another. For the most part they lived in permanent settlements. They had different administrative structures than europeans and different ideas about how to govern their lands, but they certainly were established states.
Your idea of a Horde is at least 1000 years out of date at the beginning of the game.

As for Tribes: do you honestly think, they did not have a form of currency (even if it might not have been gold / silver coins)? What about all the gold the spanish stole from the Maya, Aztec and Inca?
I think their currency was trading, Not shiny rocks.
 

tobias.mb

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Well after quickly consulting Google it seems the Maya and Aztec used cocoa beans as an everyday currency. The maya also used gold / Jade and the Aztec something called Quachtli which seems to be some kind of woven cloth for more expensive purchases. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_in_Maya_civilization#Currency) and (http://www.legendsandchronicles.com...ient-aztecs/aztec-economy-trade-and-currency/). "Ducats" are an abstraction of currency anyways. They might just as well represent cocoa beans as long as you can use them to buy stuff.

The only ones without a currency would be the Incas. It seems they did not even Trade. Instead they had a kind of planned economy where tax was payed in goods and labour which was then distributed by the government http://io9.com/the-greatest-mystery-of-the-inca-empire-was-its-strange-1198541254
Even then a localization of "ducats" as something like "labour power" for the Incas would probably be enough.
 
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talilu

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Some other suggestion about a Tribe:

I think it's very odd that Circassia is a tribe, just like an African tribe. Circassia was just an extremely fedual bunch of land, ruled by independent princes that didn't need to answer a higher lord. There was only a Elder Council that gathered when something threatened the Circassian land, that a prince couldn't deal with alone.

Even if the one ruler that the game shows is the most influental prince of that time (Petrezok Petrezok at the start), a dynasty shouldn't form. It should be like republics, since after the death of that prince, some other prince would be more influental on the Elder Council, changing the dyansty.
 

Basileios Makedon

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Well after quickly consulting Google it seems the Maya and Aztec used cocoa beans as an everyday currency. The maya also used gold / Jade and the Aztec something called Quachtli which seems to be some kind of woven cloth for more expensive purchases. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_in_Maya_civilization#Currency) and (http://www.legendsandchronicles.com...ient-aztecs/aztec-economy-trade-and-currency/). "Ducats" are an abstraction of currency anyways. They might just as well represent cocoa beans as long as you can use them to buy stuff.

The only ones without a currency would be the Incas. It seems they did not even Trade. Instead they had a kind of planned economy where tax was payed in goods and labour which was then distributed by the government http://io9.com/the-greatest-mystery-of-the-inca-empire-was-its-strange-1198541254
Even then a localization of "ducats" as something like "labour power" for the Incas would probably be enough.
Mayas, Incas and Aztecs don't enter in the concept of tribe in this post
 

tobias.mb

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Mayas, Incas and Aztecs don't enter in the concept of tribe in this post
I tried to point out, that "ducats" is a very abstract concept anyways. They can represent gold coins, cocoa beans, some kind of "labour power" or whatever resource your government uses to build buildings / pay their troops (It could very literally be the resources needed like food for your troops and wood for your buildings).

The only System that makes at least some sense to me would be something like the CK2 tribes. To build buildings tribes must use prestige (somehow representing the "respect" the tribal leader has and his authority to get things done). But the fields you build still give you ducats representing crops you use to feed the troops whose upkeep you pay with "ducats".
 

grommile

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That's one of the objectives, stop large hordes surviving until the endgame and make them a challenge for players
The Kazakh Khanate survived into the 19th century; Kazan and Crimea, on the other hand, stand a reasonable chance of being broken before the date of their historical demise.
 

Krajzen

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That's one of the objectives, stop large hordes surviving until the endgame and make them a challenge for players

Are you aware that big part of community fucking' hates nerfing hordes and created 20+ pages long threads ranting on paradox for horde nerfs?

Mind you, I was not a part of this movement but I think your way of thinking is completely crazy in this context. You suggest something a lot of people would hate.