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Lemont Elwood

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THE BUREAUCRACY SYSTEM

WHY CHANGE IS NEEDED
When Monarch Points were first mentioned in the EU4 dev diaries, I was fully behind the concept. However, the weaknesses of the system have become apparent with actual play. They’re a crutch, and one on which nearly everything rides. Want to develop your economy? Monarch Points. Want to advance technologically? Monarch Points. Want to adopt a specific governmental policy? Monarch Points. However, there is precious little control over the supply of Monarch Points, and tying most everything into an MP cost has created some… strange effects, like specializing in Naval Ideas and developing harbors (or, once Common Sense hits the markets, Base Production) stunting your Diplomatic (shipbuilding) Technology. Another problem is that, since Monarch Point production doesn’t scale, only very small states operate at full efficiency; in fact, the most efficient world would be one consisting of nothing but OPMs.

What all of this combines to create is a game that’s basically about resource management, but gives you precious little control over the supply of the resource and that forces you to make unrealistic, immersion-breaking trade-offs.

Overextension, on the other hand, fails at even its most basic job; curbing the growth of large nations. Now, it’s effective enough at slowing down land grabs. However, it’s too punishing in the short term and too lenient in the long term. People have already noted how historical feats (like the Spanish conquest of the Inca Empire) are impossible due to Overextension modifiers, while a massive nation will suffer absolutely no ill effects as long as it is all cored up.

So, my solution is to add a Bureaucracy which will represent the administrative resources of the state and the difficulties of managing large, sprawling empires while not interfering with economic and technological development.


ADMINISTERING PROVINCES
To begin, every Province would have two crucial stats: Administrative Capability and Administrative Burden. The former determines the number of Bureaucratic Points that a given Province produces, while the latter determines the number of Bureaucratic Points that the Province consumes. In essence, a Bureaucratic Point represents an abstract amount of labor in the civil service, and Burden represents the amount of labor the Province requires in order to be able to fully see the government’s work completed.

The amount of AC is, simply enough, determined by the population (or Development, barring an actual population statistic), Government buildings (think Courthouses), and other factors (like Ideas and ruler skill). The amount of AB is determined by the population, non-Government buildings, and other factors as well. So, generally speaking:

  1. Provinces with higher Populations both produce and consume more Bureaucratic Points.

  2. Government buildings increase your Administrative Capability.

  3. Non-Government buildings increase your Administrative Burden.
The ratio of Administrative Capability to Administrative Burden in a given Province is the Provincial Administrative Efficiency. This stat would, much like Autonomy currently does, impact how many useful resources you can gain from a Province; at 100% PAE, you get the total amount of taxes, manpower, and other services owed to the state. At 0% PAE, you would gain nothing.

Just as an example, suppose that the province of Cordoba was producing 155 Bureaucratic Points when it needs 182. That would give it an 85.2% PAE. If the maximum possible tax was 10.8 Ducats, Cordoba would only grant 9.20 Ducats. So, you can see why it is important to have high PAEs.



ADMINISTERING NATIONS
Now, all that said, you do not play as a province; you play as a nation. And, as a nation, you are capable of diverting Bureaucratic Points from one Province to another. See, instead of automatically “consuming” BP from its own produce, a Province grants its BP to the national stockpile, and is then doled out to various “Projects” (of which administering a Province is one type). So far, this probably just sounds like a more complicated Monarch Point system. However, there is one massive difference… Bureaucratic Points are a flow, not a storeable resource. Just like the resources of Hearts of Iron IV, you have a limited amount of actions, per say, for a given unit of time (the game currently uses months, but I would prefer weeks), and you have to apportion it accordingly.

In the case of raising Provincial Administrative Efficiency, what you do is use a new Bureaucratic Priority Mapmode to determine which areas get BP first and how much they get. There are six levels (X, I, II, III, IV, and V) for Bureaucratic Priority, each adds to the minimum PAE that a Province must get. They are:

Priority X = 5% PAE

Priority I = 20% PAE

Priority II = 40% PAE

Priority III = 60% PAE

Priority IV = 80% PAE

Priority V = 100% PAE

When the computer goes to distribute Bureaucratic Points, it focuses on filling in each level of Priority, dropping Provinces off the list as they reach their maximum. If there is not enough Bureaucratic Points to finish the process, it will then cease. If there’s a surplus, the surplus will be spent raising every Province by one Priority level until they’re all at 100% (Priority V) or the BP runs out.

To help you understand what I mean, here is one example, in which each Province is at a different level of Priority and Administrative Burden:


The Kingdom of Sicily consists of five provinces: Panarmos, Amalfi, Brindisi, Bari, and Naples, with respective Administrative Burdens of 45, 32, 28, 12, and 87 and respective Priorities of III, IV, II, I, and V. The nation’s total Administrative Capability is 136. So, the Bureaucracy spends the BP in these steps:
  1. Grant 10.2 BP to the Provinces in order to raise all to 5% PAE.
  2. Grant 30.6 BP (40.8 total) to the Provinces in order to raise all to 20% PAE.
  3. Grant 38.4 BP (79.2 total) to the Provinces in order to raise all but Bari to 40% PAE.
  4. Grant 32.8 BP (122 total) to the Provinces in order to raise all but Bari and Brindisi to 60% PAE.

Okay, to be honest, I’m not going to finish solving that problem. Since there would not be enough Bureaucratic Points to raise the Provinces of Panarmos, Amalfi, and Naples to Priority IV, what the computer would do is distribute the remaining Points in such a way that they all increase by an equal percentage of PAE. If I remember my algebra classes correctly, that would involve a system of equations, and I don’t feel like solving that. However, you get the gist of it; Bari walks away with 20% PAE, Brindisi with 40% PAE, and Panarmos, Amalfi, and Naples with some amount between 60% and 80%.

In a perfect system, a Bureaucracy in which there is exactly enough Administrative Capability to meet the Administrative Demand of every Province, there would be 100% PAE in every Province. The average of the PAEs of all Provinces (adjusted to reflect differences in Province size) would then be presented as the National Administrative Efficiency. However, such a system is an end-goal of the player, not the beginning state. If you want to administer your country perfectly, achieve your full potential, you have to make a serious investment in developing government agencies. The Priority system also ensures that you have a variety of strategies you can pursue. You could, for example, construct Government buildings in all Provinces, so that Provinces support themselves, you can have some Provinces “loan” BP out to others (this plays a huge role in Overextension). Either way, you can build tall. And that’s better than a tall system where smaller nations have cheaper Development costs just ‘cause.


HOW THIS TIES IN TO OVEREXTENSION, CORES, AND POLITICS
If you’ve put up with me for this far, you’re probably wondering how Overextension would work. Well, it’s simple: there is no Overextension stat. Instead, there are several modifiers that simulate two different types of overextension.

See, “overextension” can basically mean two things; it can mean the difficulties that a nation faces in administering freshly-conquered territory, or it can mean the difficulties that a nation faces in administering a large territory. The great weakness of EU4, the cause of these blobs and snowballs, is that it only models the first.

Since the first is the most pressing, I’ll go ahead an explain my take on it. Remember how when EU4 was first release, conquering a province destroyed all the Buildings in it? Well, my idea is to have violent transfers of Provinces result in the Government buildings (but no others) being “shut down,” with “reopening” requiring time and resources (but no more than it would take to construct the building to begin with).

What this creates is a transition period following a conquest in which you have a sudden strain on your Bureaucracy - after all, the Province’s Administrative Capacity is down to zero (or close), but it’s Administrative Burden is as large as it was before. So, how do you deal with it? Well, there’s a number of options. A well-developed empire should have a large enough surplus to flood the Province with extra Bureaucratic Points. A less-developed empire has two broad options; it can draw upon the stock of its normal Provinces and sort of “spread around” the instability, which is more or less how Overextension is currently represented. Finally, it can say “screw it” and assign the new Provinces low Priority, more or less leaving them to fend for themselves until the Government buildings are reopened. Reopening basically just represents the tying together of your national bureaucracy and the local authorities, and diplo-annexation assumes that it was part of the process.

Reopening also removes the existence of Cores. Instead of having Cores, the nation in possession of the Province either has functioning Government buildings or they don’t. Claims are reworked to take on the role of representing diplomatic rights (and the support of the people) to own the land, with varying strengths (an Indisputable Claim, for example, would last for the duration of the game).

The second kind of overextension, overextension of scale, results from three numbers: the distance of the province from the capital, the percentage of border shared with Provinces of the same nation, and the total number of provinces. All of these are also manifested in the form of additional Administrative Demand; i.e., a +12% Demand for being ten provinces from the capital, a +34% Demand for sharing only one of six borders with a Province of the same nation, or a +22% Demand for there being 33 Provinces of the realm. All of this combines to incentivize logical growth. Blobbing everywhere is not efficient, though it is possible with large enough investments (but at what cost?). Snaking will strangle your Bureaucracy in border penalties. As for the distance, think of that as being the replacement for the old overseas replacement. Like with size, you can overcome it, but it’ll cost you.

Finally, I did mention politics. I won’t go into detail on that (it’s really the subject of another thread), but there should be political penalties for failing to administer your state efficiently, whether it be as complex as political elites forming factions against you or as simple as an increased Stability cost. Provinces with low Efficiency will soon come to wonder why they even bother with paying their taxes…


BUREAUCRATIC POINTS AS A RESOURCE
Now, the bits that I listed could work on their own. I do think, though, that the idea of Monarch Points isn’t wholly bad. As such, there would be a Bureaucratic Points cost for most anything you do. However, it would be a small cost! Like, if fully administering a given Province costs 100 BP, recruiting a Regiment might just be 3 BP.

The main concern with such a system is how it would gel with BP being a flow (instead of a stack) and there rarely being a surplus of BP. Well, under the new Bureaucracy tab (where you enter the Priority Mapmode and interact with Bureaucratic Priorities), there would be a Maximum National Bureaucracy stockpile, and a Projects list. Projects represent any ongoing activities of the government (construction, diplomacy, military, anything with a BP cost), while the MNB can be used to set how much you want for these other Projects. Projects would have four levels: Absolute Priority, Major Priority, Medium Priority, or Minimal Priority. Absolute Priority, as it implies, means that your Project gets “funded” with BP regardless of the Maximum limit. The other three work like Provincial Priorities, in that they add a minimum amount of “funding” that must be satisfied before other Projects are. You can also halt a Project, though not all Projects may be halted indefinitely, or the progress may actually deteriorate in the absence of additional resources.

For example, at a given time, I may be trying to recruit five new Regiments for a war, construct a new Temple, pursue an anti-smuggling act, and maintain an embassy in a foreign capital. The Regiments, being immediately needed, go on Absolute Priority; better to lose some taxes from lower Efficiency than to be overrun. The anti-smuggling act really helps my trade, so it gets Major Priority. The embassy is nice, but not necessary - Moderate Priority. Then, the Temple can always wait. Minor Priority.


AUTONOMY AS A TOOL
Finally, I wasn’t sure what to do with Local Autonomy, but I think I’ve come up with a system. See, unlike the current version, where Autonomy is purely bad and is used only in exchange for reducing Unrest, this Autonomy system would be a situational tool.

In essence, every point of Autonomy will decrease the Administrative Capability and Administrative Demand of a Province by 1% each; the exact rates, however, would depend on factors like national Ideas, policies, and modifiers. So, if a Province is demanding a lot of BP, yet not offering much in return, you can clean up by making it more Autonomous.

However, Provinces that have Autonomy will rarely want to give it up. Like with lowering Autonomy in the current game, lowering it here will usually result in a stiff push-back.
 
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Basileios Makedon

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Good ideas, I can't stand that "Raise Stability and fall behind inn tech" but I think we should not add many new values to the game, because it would be very complex.
 

Grim Deadman

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This is good! Maybe we can do something about how technology works next - a separate topic for another thread, no doubt.
I think the "shutting down" of gov buildings is an unnecessary complication though, we can just have the entire category be destroyed on conquest: same effect, less coding.
 

Lemont Elwood

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I'm glad to see that this topic has had at least some attention, and mostly positive, too.

Good ideas, I can't stand that "Raise Stability and fall behind inn tech" but I think we should not add many new values to the game, because it would be very complex.

The system may seem daunting on account of the number of new stats I mentioned, but I think I wrote the idea in such a way that it would be instinctive how you use it. For the most part, players should be able to set their Priorities and then leave the system "running," at least until some unforseen catastrophe screws everything up and they reconsider their interests. I forgot to mention that there would be potential shocks to the Bureaucracy (like, say, political crises reducing your Administrative Capability) and specific reasons to prioritize one Province over another (like staving off an immediate threat).

This is good! Maybe we can do something about how technology works next - a separate topic for another thread, no doubt.
I think the "shutting down" of gov buildings is an unnecessary complication though, we can just have the entire category be destroyed on conquest: same effect, less coding.

I think the best approach to Technology is a mixture of CK and Vicky. That is, you have a large number of branches (eight in total), but instead of just saving up generic "Research" points to invest, your number of points in a category is determined by the circumstances of your realm. Constructing arts colleges, for example, would increase the rate of Aesthetics Research Points. Getting in scraps would give you more Army Research Points. And so on.

You may be right about the Government buildings. I'm just afraid that having to rebuild them could make expansion prohibitively expensive. Maybe they could have a low construction cost, but also a maintenance fee (like Forts come Common Sense).
 
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joe9594

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I do agree that the current coring system doesn't work very well but I would prefer to have a system where provinces are given cores after some amount of time (depending on autonomy, culture religion, overseas etc). I think that having a bureaucracy system would be good but you have to consider the possibility that be assigning to much stuff to the single system you get the same old problem. I think that a good solution would be to have bureaucracy to administer provinces, build buildings as well as jointly pay for new ideas and techs along with monarch points. Monarch points would be used for special actions (suppressing revolt beyond normal bureaucratic efforts, fostering specific art etc), a bit for tech/ideas and significantly for policies which are supposed to be the prerogative decree of the monarch and therefore are where monarch points make the most sense. This finally make it so that a monarch will help a nation in the things they are skilled at by allowing more policies of that type, but this would only last the lifetime of the monarch.
Bureaucracy would be semi scaling (large nations will tend to have more bureaucracy but less per point of development/province) while monarch points would be their current barely scaling form. So big nations could do more in important areas but small nations still have valuable advantages to help them compete and hopefully slow blobbing (although I would hope that only being able to get cores by waiting combined with unrest and autonomy in those regions would probably help with this too).

Also yes I absolutely agree that tech needs to be re hauled to something more like CK2. Of the 4 major titles CK it is in some ways the least tech focused, but I think it has the best system.
 

BrokenSky

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WRt tech, Possibly make it so you have Generic research points generated over time, possibly monthly, by Research buildings, policies and ideas, as well as a base amount per nation. These are then funneled into one of three (or four) categories (Military/Diplomatic/Admin/Prestige?) by a predetermined allocation which is mostly decided by the player but can be effected by some degree of randomness. Changing the allocations requires a small BP cost and time. Going from "100%" Mil to "100%" Diplo would take longer than changing by ~10%. Also there would be specialization inefficiency; any category with >30% would actually gain 30+(x-30/2) % of the points, with the other (x-30/2)% being wasted. or similar. Balancing this would be efficient, but focusing too much in one area leads to people doubling other peoples research. To these 3 pools, an amount more would be added by things like events, buildings (commercial give diplo for example), development?. These would then be taken by techs and idea. they could be stored, but decay quite rapidly over time if not used. If put into tech or idea progress though they would be safe, but could not be reallocated. So storing give versatility at a cost of efficiency. Battles also could give military tech points.

Then tech could be split into perhaps 6 lines? 2 Per research type: Military goes to Fortification, Army and Naval, Diplomacy goes to Naval, Trade (and colonisation) and Production and Administrative goes to Production, Bureaucratic and Fortification. Or something. Presumably Army, Trade and Bureaucratic would have something to offset the fact that they only get points from 1 pool. Perhaps being stronger, or cheaper?

Of course ahead of time modifiers would still be in place, but perhaps also a cost of prestige per month of being behind the times in any area? Or something?

Anyway this is more of a brainstorming thing than a coherent set of ideas, but I hope it's useful? I think your current overhaul suggestion sounds good.
 

Grim Deadman

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You may be right about the Government buildings. I'm just afraid that having to rebuild them could make expansion prohibitively expensive. Maybe they could have a low construction cost, but also a maintenance fee (like Forts come Common Sense).

I'd rather leave them as they are, if you conquer new land setting up a functioning administration was always expensive. Ideas, policies, decisions and tech can reduce it to almost nought by the end of the game if you swing that way.

Also yes I absolutely agree that tech needs to be re hauled to something more like CK2. Of the 4 major titles CK it is in some ways the least tech focused, but I think it has the best system.

Precisely, only I think the player should have even less direct controll over tech, it should be dependent on the choices you make rather than actual spending. You are playing a government, not a research team, I feel it would only be fair if your biggest leverage over R&D would be your fiscal policy.
 
Last edited:

Lemont Elwood

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Personally, I don't see a need for Monarch Points at all, as long as other kinds of points (like "Bureaucratic Points" and "Leadership Points") exist to fulfill the role of state resources. I think the Monarch's skills can mostly affect the government through modifiers, like a high-Admin ruler increasing your overall Administrative Capability.

WRt tech, Possibly make it so you have Generic research points generated over time, possibly monthly, by Research buildings, policies and ideas, as well as a base amount per nation. These are then funneled into one of three (or four) categories (Military/Diplomatic/Admin/Prestige?) by a predetermined allocation which is mostly decided by the player but can be effected by some degree of randomness. Changing the allocations requires a small BP cost and time. Going from "100%" Mil to "100%" Diplo would take longer than changing by ~10%. Also there would be specialization inefficiency; any category with >30% would actually gain 30+(x-30/2) % of the points, with the other (x-30/2)% being wasted. or similar. Balancing this would be efficient, but focusing too much in one area leads to people doubling other peoples research. To these 3 pools, an amount more would be added by things like events, buildings (commercial give diplo for example), development?. These would then be taken by techs and idea. they could be stored, but decay quite rapidly over time if not used. If put into tech or idea progress though they would be safe, but could not be reallocated. So storing give versatility at a cost of efficiency. Battles also could give military tech points.

Then tech could be split into perhaps 6 lines? 2 Per research type: Military goes to Fortification, Army and Naval, Diplomacy goes to Naval, Trade (and colonisation) and Production and Administrative goes to Production, Bureaucratic and Fortification. Or something. Presumably Army, Trade and Bureaucratic would have something to offset the fact that they only get points from 1 pool. Perhaps being stronger, or cheaper?

Of course ahead of time modifiers would still be in place, but perhaps also a cost of prestige per month of being behind the times in any area? Or something?

Anyway this is more of a brainstorming thing than a coherent set of ideas, but I hope it's useful? I think your current overhaul suggestion sounds good.

I had eight lines planned:
1. Government and Philosophy
2. Army
3. Navy
4. Engineering
5. Production
6. Commerce
7. Aesthetics
8. Science

Much like a muscle, "using" things tied to a tech would increase your Research points. Like, if you have a large stake in overseas trading, you'll gain Commerce Tech Points faster. If you fight many wars, you'll get Army Tech Points faster. In theory, that would lead to natural stagnation since overly stable or overly isolated regions would not be getting the important bonuses.

I'd rather leave them as they are, if you conquer new land setting up a functioning administration was always expensive. Ideas, policies, decisions and tech can reduce it to almost nought by the end of the game you you swing that way.



Precisely, only I think the player should have even less direct controll over tech, it should be dependent on the choices you make rather than actual spending. You are playing a government, not a research team, I feel it would only be fair if your biggest leverage over R&D would be your fiscal policy.

I agree. In as much as the government influences the development of technology, the economy, and even the political system, it should be by allocating resources to things which influence those categories. You're not the nation, you're the state.
 

Shadowstrike

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I like this system - it really represents how bureaucracy acts as your capacity to administer your territories. Two suggestions:

1) The priority system could be simplifier by having different tiers government buildings (royal court, "provincial court", "local court", etc.) and having administrative priority radiate out from them.
2) You should be able to inherit at least some bureaucracy (or some of the government buildings) from places you conquer. It was easier for the Spanish to administer Mexico, for instance, by co-opting the Aztec elites, than say Aruacania, where the Mapuche had no bureaucracy.
 

Lemont Elwood

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I like this system - it really represents how bureaucracy acts as your capacity to administer your territories. Two suggestions:

1) The priority system could be simplifier by having different tiers government buildings (royal court, "provincial court", "local court", etc.) and having administrative priority radiate out from them.
2) You should be able to inherit at least some bureaucracy (or some of the government buildings) from places you conquer. It was easier for the Spanish to administer Mexico, for instance, by co-opting the Aztec elites, than say Aruacania, where the Mapuche had no bureaucracy.

1) Something like that could work as an alternative, but it would serve a fundamentally different role than Priority. Priority is something you set so that integral (or rebellious) sections of the nation don't go belly up when conditions change for the worse. If you have to construct a full building, which takes months and a chunk of cash, it's not all that useul.

2) Ah, that's going to be the subject of my Colonization thread (when I get around to posting it). For colonization, the way I'm envisioning it working is that nomadic nations (which, in this situation, doesn't mean natives that live off of hunting, but that are capable of migration) can hold multiple provinces and can overlap with sedentary nations. Colonization in these areas involves enticing settlers to move from your homeland to the new land, but nomads take up a considerable amount of "space," so you ultimately have to assimilate them, conquer them, or evict them.

Basically, the entire map would be covered in playable states, but expansion into tribal territories would be radically different from both the "conquer and core" system and the "send a colonist and park a regiment on it" system.
 

Shadowstrike

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I floated some similar ideas about administrative capacity (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...s-about-expanding-the-autonomy-system.841143/) and colonies (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/colonies-as-virtual-provinces.847733/) a while back - and I'm sure I'm not the first person to propose them. It bugs me too that you have basically infinite ability to easily administer new lands, and that half the world must be terra nullus to satisfy the notion that colonization was peaceful. It wasn't - it was basically conquest, in regions that were recently depopulated through disease or war.
 

grommile

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This is the kind of proposal that makes me think "Dear OP, perhaps you should find some like-minded people with appropriate skills and implement this completely new game you're proposing."
 

BrokenSky

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This is the kind of proposal that makes me think "Dear OP, perhaps you should find some like-minded people with appropriate skills and implement this completely new game you're proposing."

It's not really different enough to warrant a new game. It might be better suited to being features in EUV, but either way fully fleshing the ideas out is a good idea, I think?
 

mutant666

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This is the kind of proposal that makes me think "Dear OP, perhaps you should find some like-minded people with appropriate skills and implement this completely new game you're proposing."

This is a suggestion forum. For suggestions. Yes some of the suggestions might be an extensive overhaul of key mechanics. But, as the author of this post pointed out, he doesn't necessarily expect these suggestions to be implemented. It simply serves as a tool for paradox to see what areas the community would like to see improved and in what way. I for one, am all for implementing a bureaucracy system. I think it adds much need meat to a bare bones area of the game.
 

Savoyer

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Personally, I don't see a need for Monarch Points at all, as long as other kinds of points (like "Bureaucratic Points" and "Leadership Points") exist to fulfill the role of state resources. I think the Monarch's skills can mostly affect the government through modifiers, like a high-Admin ruler increasing your overall Administrative Capability.



I had eight lines planned:
1. Government and Philosophy
2. Army
3. Navy
4. Engineering
5. Production
6. Commerce
7. Aesthetics
8. Science

Much like a muscle, "using" things tied to a tech would increase your Research points. Like, if you have a large stake in overseas trading, you'll gain Commerce Tech Points faster. If you fight many wars, you'll get Army Tech Points faster. In theory, that would lead to natural stagnation since overly stable or overly isolated regions would not be getting the important bonuses.



I agree. In as much as the government influences the development of technology, the economy, and even the political system, it should be by allocating resources to things which influence those categories. You're not the nation, you're the state.

Really like the Tech branhces ideas, but what about Diplomacy,? As I see, they could be merged in Commerce AND Diplomacy. And about the MP... Wiz really stated that they like the MP system (which really suchs but...) It's difficult to then to make MP not the focus. There could be a way to divide the reserch points like they are used in CKII-ish. I really want the stack aspect of MP gone but I think it's no going to happen. :(
 

Undead Martyr

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1) Something like that could work as an alternative, but it would serve a fundamentally different role than Priority. Priority is something you set so that integral (or rebellious) sections of the nation don't go belly up when conditions change for the worse. If you have to construct a full building, which takes months and a chunk of cash, it's not all that useul.

2) Ah, that's going to be the subject of my Colonization thread (when I get around to posting it). For colonization, the way I'm envisioning it working is that nomadic nations (which, in this situation, doesn't mean natives that live off of hunting, but that are capable of migration) can hold multiple provinces and can overlap with sedentary nations. Colonization in these areas involves enticing settlers to move from your homeland to the new land, but nomads take up a considerable amount of "space," so you ultimately have to assimilate them, conquer them, or evict them.

Basically, the entire map would be covered in playable states, but expansion into tribal territories would be radically different from both the "conquer and core" system and the "send a colonist and park a regiment on it" system.
The problem with that is that the "nomadic" peoples resisted conquest to the end of the period, in some cases, whereas the empires were easier to decapitate then replace- this institutional inertia also showed up in, e.g. Persia and China, arguably, though that's more a matter of "de jure" titles....
The conquistadors intermarried with the native elites and basically replaced them. At least that's what the Spanish did, the French, Portuguese, and British had different views on their colonies.
 

Lemont Elwood

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Really like the Tech branhces ideas, but what about Diplomacy,? As I see, they could be merged in Commerce AND Diplomacy. And about the MP... Wiz really stated that they like the MP system (which really suchs but...) It's difficult to then to make MP not the focus. There could be a way to divide the reserch points like they are used in CKII-ish. I really want the stack aspect of MP gone but I think it's no going to happen. :(

I don't feel that diplomatic actions are really a thing that should be subject to technology level.

Also, I'd bet Wiz likes Monarch Points... to implement my ideas, they'd probably have to have five times the workforce they have now.

The problem with that is that the "nomadic" peoples resisted conquest to the end of the period, in some cases, whereas the empires were easier to decapitate then replace- this institutional inertia also showed up in, e.g. Persia and China, arguably, though that's more a matter of "de jure" titles....
The conquistadors intermarried with the native elites and basically replaced them. At least that's what the Spanish did, the French, Portuguese, and British had different views on their colonies.

Yeah. I've currently identified three forms of conquest: Conquest (in which a Civilized people seizes the territory and population of another Civilized people), Migration (in which a Savage people forceably runs off another population, and gains control through force of numbers), and Colonization (in which a Civilized people forceably runs off Savages, and gains control through force of numbers).

The key to the system is that Savages (tribes) are highly reliant on free land for their economy, and can basically freely move around. So, they are constantly fighting each other and Civilized nations for control over scarce natural resources. It's Mfecane everyday!
 

Undead Martyr

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I don't feel that diplomatic actions are really a thing that should be subject to technology level.

Also, I'd bet Wiz likes Monarch Points... to implement my ideas, they'd probably have to have five times the workforce they have now.



Yeah. I've currently identified three forms of conquest: Conquest (in which a Civilized people seizes the territory and population of another Civilized people), Migration (in which a Savage people forceably runs off another population, and gains control through force of numbers), and Colonization (in which a Civilized people forceably runs off Savages, and gains control through force of numbers).

The key to the system is that Savages (tribes) are highly reliant on free land for their economy, and can basically freely move around. So, they are constantly fighting each other and Civilized nations for control over scarce natural resources. It's Mfecane everyday!

But that's precisely my point: the major conquests were not against "primitives."
Civilized literally means residents of cities; discounting the Aztec Triple Alliance, who built and operated a city as large or larger than any in Europe at the time, is blatant Eurocentric racism.
 

Lemont Elwood

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But that's precisely my point: the major conquests were not against "primitives."
Civilized literally means residents of cities; discounting the Aztec Triple Alliance, who built and operated a city as large or larger than any in Europe at the time, is blatant Eurocentric racism.

Is calling the Japanese of 1836 uncivilized Eurocentric racism? Of course it is. I just use the term because it's thematically consistent, it's flavor. But at any rate, the Aztecs would NOT be Savages under my system. To my understanding, the Spanish basically just showed up, overthrew the ruler, and took over administration themselves. They didn't displace or gradually win over the population. As such, the games current mechanics - declare war, enforce war goal, and establish a core - suffice when dealing with Nahuatl, Maya, and Inti religion provinces.

In short, they can use the same mechanics as Europe and Asia. They already do, in fact; they don't have Native mechanics like the Native Councils and Siberian Clan-Councils.

The Savages represent tribes which did not go easily; those which were in a state of territorial flux and who the Europeans had to push back, like the English and Americans faced during their entire march west to the Pacific, or that the Spaniards and Argentines had in the Pampas.

As is, the player can more easily conquer the settled Cherokee territory than the (as depicted by the game) unsettled North Carolina coast, and the mechanics imply that you are merely administering the natives as your own (since you lose no base tax and have to assimilate them to get your culture to appear). This is simply a false portrayal of history, and deserves different mechanics. My mechanics would have the player making a choice to fight the tribe and run them off, fight the tribe and enslave them, win the tribesmen over through diplomacy and faith, or take them under their wing through a mutually-beneficial trade network.
 
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