Machine Empires are still a flop.

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powerofvoid

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Both kinds of Gestalt Intelligence feel like flops to me at this point, from a flavor perspective.

The most blatant issue is ecumenopoli: apparently, in Stellaris, mobs of independent, self-willed individuals with their own emotional needs who are constantly coming into conflict and disagreeing with each other are far better at cramming huge numbers of pops into once place than Gestalt Intelligences whose pops are basically cells in their body or cogs in the machine that is them, and have no psychological needs that might necessitate things like "personal space" or "a room with a nice view".
 

Maethendias

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people also seem to not understand that trade is a big issue (especially when they bring up the argument of "consumer goods)

you can basically (and easily) sustain your entire empire on trade alone as a bio pop (obviously it needs ramp up, but considering how trade scales out of control depending on pop...)

robots have NONe of that
 

permeakra

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you can basically (and easily) sustain your entire empire on trade alone as a bio pop
Actually, it isn't nearly that easy and it is a lot less efficient per pop than clean economy with minimal trade. See recent threads about clerks.
So no, this doesn't count as a point towards organics.

Also, MEs got a fairly strong buff in 2.2.4, i.e. maintanance and tech-drone jobs per city district. That's fairly useful.
 

Xephos Demonslayer

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Robot pop growth speed is terrible. Robots, which don't need things like "growing up" or "education", have a base growth speed worse than that of organics (2.0 compared to 3.0). Prior to 2.2 I routinely had games where I would have more robots than people, which isn't possible now without shooting yourself in the foot and crippling your own pop growth, which is a shame as playing a MI or heavy robot build was my favorite way to play before the update. I love the game, but robots need some seriously re-balancing to make them on par with organics again.

Machine intelligence robots need and extra energy job in tech districts, because they need to eat energy.

It's still more efficient to turn food into energy than straight up make energy as a MI. Don't fix this by nerfing the bio reactor again, fix it by buffing energy production for machines.

people also seem to not understand that trade is a big issue (especially when they bring up the argument of "consumer goods)

you can basically (and easily) sustain your entire empire on trade alone as a bio pop (obviously it needs ramp up, but considering how trade scales out of control depending on pop...)

robots have NONe of that

I legitimately don't build energy districts as an organic. Why bother, when I can make all my energy off trade, and make all my CG off trade, and make all my amenities from my clerks, who make trade, thereby rendering entertainers obsolete. Trade value is ridiculous. I can be making 5000 EC from trade on the CG trade policy by endgame, which would be 10k on the regular policy if I wasn't so lazy that I didn't feel like building another 2 industry worlds. Gestalts really need something to make up for not having trade.

The Machines have 200% habitability. You can rush colonies in every near planet of your start position, that is too much potencial.

Sure, and in the time I colonize those planets, and get around 5 pops each there, straining my economy just to keep even on my budget because pop growth is so slow and I spend all my energy maintaining my pops and all my minerals funding replicators to make it grow faster, the organics who somehow populate faster than a race that literally comes off the assembly line ready to work until they break down has grown three times the pops and makes four times the EC I do because of trade. Sooooooo OP.

one of the obvious flaws to me is that MEs require higher energy income for the upkeep of their pops, but have lower energy production because they have no access to trade value.

said it before, I'll say it again, either give MI (and hive minds) an equivalent to trade, or buff their EC output from jobs. Otherwise organic empires are just better.
 
Last edited:

Metroidkirby

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The Machines have 200% habitability. You can rush colonies in every near planet of your start position, that is too much potencial.

That's not "too much potential", that's the only way a ME can survive (well, or rushing as a Determined Exterminator), as without extra planet a ME will severely lack pop growth.
Just start a game in observer mod, after 50 years, all ME are in last places in ranking and power comparison.
 

Surimi

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The most blatant issue is ecumenopoli: apparently, in Stellaris, mobs of independent, self-willed individuals with their own emotional needs who are constantly coming into conflict and disagreeing with each other are far better at cramming huge numbers of pops into once place than Gestalt Intelligences whose pops are basically cells in their body or cogs in the machine that is them, and have no psychological needs that might necessitate things like "personal space" or "a room with a nice view".

I mean, let's be real here.. the problem here is that ecumenopoli are overpowered and any play-style which locks them out is thus objectively worse because literally nothing can compensate for not having them.

From a lore standpoint, it's very easy to see why gestalts don't build ecumenopoli, because why build a planet that literally can't support itself and which needs to import every single resource it uses just so everyone can live close together?

Of course, in Stellaris creating a ridiculous city-planet which literally can't support itself doesn't result in enormous logistical stress as every single rock used in that planet's industry needs to be flown in by spaceship, instead it results in a hyper-efficient economy where enormous industrial regions churn out vast quantities of finished goods with zero impact on the viability of the biosphere. Meanwhile, just building an alloy plant on any planet which is not an ecumenopolis requires constant infusions of rare magical super-dust to keep it working and still can't match the output.
 

Haliphas

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since robo-modding has no "advanced" traits

How did I never think about this?! Robots don't get advanced traits! Paradox, why don't robots get advanced traits?!

This seems like the sort of "smaller" issue that could go ignored indefinitely, too. Is there a mod that adds advanced traits for robots? Is that even possible to mod, particularly if you want it to also affect leaders the way, say, erudite does?
 

Maethendias

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Actually, it isn't nearly that easy and it is a lot less efficient per pop than clean economy with minimal trade. See recent threads about clerks.
So no, this doesn't count as a point towards organics.

Also, MEs got a fairly strong buff in 2.2.4, i.e. maintanance and tech-drone jobs per city district. That's fairly useful.
more jobs doesnt remove the issue that the jobs themselves ARE EXTREMLY INEFFECTIVE PER JOB... ESPECIALLY WHEN MI ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE MOST RESSOURCE EFFECTIVE EMPIRES ...
 

Madzai

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i wanna say for machine empires buff energy to 6 per job and nerf food to 4 per job
Energy alone won't cut it. ME supposed to be more effective( even in DD about them) in production per-Pop, while GS supposed to be more numerous and they actually are with 3 jobs per district. And, at least, they we doing good until latest maintenance drone nerf. But ME are doing nothing, but siting on every planet waiting for Pops count to reach 5. They need overall increase in production across the board and mid-late game boost to growth. Like additional replicator jobs, or maybe even something like unique replicator planet.
 

KingAlamar

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The Machines have 200% habitability. You can rush colonies in every near planet of your start position, that is too much potencial.

Unrealized potential .. In my current organic game [prior game was ME] I decided to settle anything [even 20% planets] and sure enough they're do-able. Sure there are penalties but those often get offset quickly enough.

Also with hybrid species [if those are allowed] you get "adaptable" species so quickly that starting the game with that bonus doesn't help so much. Now if things changed so you could only settle on 65% [or higher] habitability worlds then the habitability point would actually be a real point.
 

Madzai

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Unrealized potential .. In my current organic game [prior game was ME] I decided to settle anything [even 20% planets] and sure enough they're do-able. Sure there are penalties but those often get offset quickly enough.
Yeah, it's kind of hard to get truly hit by Habitability penalty. You can have slaves, robots, migration from the early game. Even GS can use low-hab planets as breeding grounds to fuel their main planets until terraforming\genemodding.
 

M3lamor1

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I think each replicator should give 1,50/1,20 assembly speed. Robots have to pay for their pop growth and it is worse that organics free pop growth. Robot pop growth should be better because robots don't have to learn anything or grow up, you just have to build a body and install the software in it.
 

Ridixo

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The biggest two problems of Machine Empires are:
-Pop growth
- Energy production
Robomodding needs to have some changes, but that two at least will make ME more playable. In the old grid system, building specialized pops and giving them the right job was more easy. That strategy was destroyed completely by the 2.2 patch. You can't make specialized pops as before because even if you do them, they will grow slowly and then they will get the wrong job. To solve the pop growth problem it's not enough to increase the rate of pop assembly. Pre-patch 2.2 there was a building that make ME pops grow faster, the spare parts deposit or something like that, the ME equivalent of the colonial clinics. Now instead ME don't have that buildings, the only one they have needs urgent fixes and some form of upgraded versions. The organics clinics have two levels, why ME only one? The energy production have always be the big problem of a ME. For more empires energy is their cash and food their pop upkeep resource, for ME energy is one and the same, the new system constrains how much energy you can produce in the form of a capped number of generator districts. Well uncapped if you have Machine Planets in the early mid game, if you are lucky. You need to stay afloat and keep your economy working with reduced pop growth and a difficult economy. 2.2 give an awful hit to my favorite DLC.

@permeakra sorry to disagree with you, but about what you said:

Also, MEs got a fairly strong buff in 2.2.4, i.e. maintanance and tech-drone jobs per city district. That's fairly useful.

Useful, yes, sufficient, no. Back when i played one of my first ME games the first important war i win was against some fanatic purifying empire, i take all his worlds and all his pops. Grid-amalgamation did wonders and then i was having a surplus of 200 energy just from that pops. The problem then was that each pop was using a space in the old grid system. With the new system i said: "Hey, great, no more problem, no more minerals lost for not being able to use a space. Grid-amalgamation for all the organics!", then the patch goes out and things wasn't that great. There have been some fixes here and there but ME still needs it own patch length solution just for the DCL content. The ME need some kind of work, or even rework on their economy. Burning food for energy is a bad disguised in-game economic patch. At least some players offer some solutions. Like @Uskayaw said:

FR: remove producing drones altogether.
Let robodistricts become fully automatic factories. No housing, no jobs, just boxes that transform resources into other resources.
In other words, make machine intelligence a gameplay option for people who don't like population control.
thumb-1920-778421.jpg

Automated districts could be a great addition. Maybe making the district itself producing some resources while still giving jobs can be a great boon to the ME economy. The idea is flavorful, interesting adds to the uniqueness of the ME and that screenshot is the kind of industrial landscape i imagine when thinking of machine worlds. A side question: ¿Does somebody from what game it is?
 

Halapo

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The only thin I can think of as an early offset, get the new colony perks that add an extra pop on colonization, spam colonies on everything nearby, since habitat shouldn't be an issue, from on 4-6 worlds vs other races growing on just 2-3 in the first 20 years? Would that work, guess you would get into sprawl/growth/tech penalty...

I forget if machine empire species have a habitat type... Only one I played was rouge servitor, so I had bio trophies, so I think I was a bit worried about habitat...
 

Spectra Twilight

Corporal
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Mar 8, 2018
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A side question: ¿Does somebody from what game it is?
That image is the background of the title screen for Factorio.