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Damocles said:
Well.

It is my humble proposal to scrap any limits to naval warfare. I know I brought it up, and should be flogged mercilessly for it. Yet it was actually HG that inspired my turnabout. If naval size is relatively relative, there isn't that big of a problem. Though, it is stupid to see 300k troops transported effortlessly. It shouldn't be as much of a problem if we limit CCs to 5 or 10. Which is the one really needed improvement.

I think that limiting shipyards will do the trick. If what Barnius says is true, warships shouldn't go over 480ish?


I do however, feel that its important to have some fort rules.

Why didn't you say transporting large armies was your problem? :confused: Yes, that's in fact why I added "almost" when saying navies have nothing to do with land combat and are ruled by different rules.

That's EASY :) And should be acceptable to you. How about transporting armies only by transport ships? That way we should all build and maintain some transports (curse them!). The only problem is there is no way to check it :( But let's assume all will honour the gentlemans agreement...

And HG, you can propose that for the next patch: carrying capacity of warships and galleys set to zero and perhaps for transports set to 1.

About 480ish... I was talking about support limit :) And if there is one thing I love more than money that are warships... so what is maintenance costs a fortune :rofl:
 

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RADICAL PROPOSAL

Move all Latin tech countries to Orthodox tech.
Move all Orthodox tech countries to Muslim tech.
Move all Muslim tech countries to China tech.

I'll mention that china tech is still pretty damn good and far better then exotic. Its 1.4, compared to muslim tech being 1.3. Orthodox tech is around 1.2.

EDIT: At this speed, everyone will progress about 10-15% slower down the tech tree. It dosen't seem like much of a difference, but it is combined with HG's inflation rules.
 

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Barnius said:
Why didn't you say transporting large armies was your problem? :confused: Yes, that's in fact why I added "almost" when saying navies have nothing to do with land combat and are ruled by different rules.

That's EASY :) And should be acceptable to you. How about transporting armies only by transport ships? That way we should all build and maintain some transports (curse them!). The only problem is there is no way to check it :( But let's assume all will honour the gentlemans agreement...

And HG, you can propose that for the next patch: carrying capacity of warships and galleys set to zero and perhaps for transports set to 1.

About 480ish... I was talking about support limit :) And if there is one thing I love more than money that are warships... so what is maintenance costs a fortune :rofl:

Aye, the more I think about it, the more I consider that the real problem is income and tech. Barnius only achieved a 500 warship fleet around the time where he had a massive, almost unchallenged trade income. Gotta slow down tech and income tho. Something has to be done. Too many people max trade and infra by the early 1700s.
 

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Forza,

If armies get smaller, forts must get smaller.

That's all there is to it.

Damo,

I've considered that...

Moving the OE to China tech is fairly reasonable. Hadn't occured to me.
 

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HolisticGod said:
Forza,

If armies get smaller, forts must get smaller.

That's all there is to it.

Damo,

I've considered that...

Moving the OE to China tech is fairly reasonable. Hadn't occured to me.

Its only 1.4 compared to 1.3 as muslim. Not like exotic, which is 1.9!!
 

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HolisticGod said:
Barni,

Last night, you said there was a problem with warships...

I think this is bias. You want to see huge fleets stationed all over the world because, as you noted, that was your conception of the game. Unfortunately, it's ahistorical and unbalancing.

When you can pump hundreds of warships out, there's never any real naval combat. Just attrition and absurdly huge battles until one side loses on land. That's not the way it should be-losing one's warfleet should have a massive, negative affect on a country's military and economy.

I accept I look at it subjectively. But I accepted and "allowed" the same for you land-fighters. Your and Damocles' remark about land warfare not beeing fun for with large armies was enough for me :) Especially if Slaros and Mulliman are with you.

What I would like to see is other naval nations (besides me) saying something about naval combat and how they like it.
 

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All right. Slowdown proposals gathered up and presented for easy listening. Read the discussion, though, if you're just tuning in. Don't want to go back over the same ground:

Tech
All Latin to Orthodox
All Orthodox to Moslem
Ottoman Empire to Chinese in 1615

Inflation
-Base 5% inflation will be added after every session. It cannot go below this and will be restored as necessary at rehosts and between sessions.
-In 1740, a one-shot increase of 15% will be added, making the total at that time 40%
-If necessary, the base will be readjusted up or down if I feel it isn't having the desired effect

CCs
-Limited to 10

Fortifications
-Medium everywhere in Europe
-Unlimited in the Low Countries
-Large in mountains
-Unlimited in capitals and COTs
-Small in the colonies

Do we even want to bother with a base tax scale?
 

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Damocles said:
I think a HUGE step would be to limiting tech growth and income. That is the root of all evil. Only absurdly rich countries can ever build Barniusque warships with shipyards and manus everywhere.

So how can we dramatically slow tech?

THAT'S what I think also. And suggested gradual inflation increase should address that.

Also, in Mach II everything was OK with naval combar as long as there was naval combat. But when the Merchant Federation was formed it was basically over. Before that, though, we all suffered huge financial losses in naval combat, which is also good for your above goal.

Why can't you look at warships as like 10 are in fact 1? Than it is all nice and historical, and still all finctions of navies are achievable. I mean, do you believe Historically it took 5 WARSHIPS to prevent trade (blockade). What we miss are frigates or corvettes :(
 

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ForzaA said:
seeing that they seemed perfectly able to do that with ~400k and little reinforcement, thats exactly the problem..

Yes, that's a problem for my concept of play also. But is it historrically correct to just storm fortified towns? Damo, you already mentioned storming and I asked you about that. Is it storming forts what you regard as "more dinamic" and more interested land warfare?
 

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Barni,

Storming forts is just something that's necessary because of the game engine.

Historically, particularly after the mid seventeenth century, what mattered was the pitched battle. I cannot think of one moment in European military history after that point (or, indeed, in the whole game-span) where the assault of a fortress was the defining moment.
 

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Barnius said:
Yes, that's a problem for my concept of play also. But is it historrically correct to just storm fortified towns? Damo, you already mentioned storming and I asked you about that. Is it storming forts what you regard as "more dinamic" and more interested land warfare?

It gets to the point to where its the only thing that matters. Armies are meaningless, ducats is meaningless, all you do is pull together a huge army and assault as much as you can, where raw troops wins the day.

Its all very accurate if we're playing a WWI game, but I sadly miss the intricacies of maneuver that are mostly apparent in the first 100 years. Maybe its because I've played half a hundred games. But I'd like to see the early and mid game drawn out a bit more.
 

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HolisticGod said:
All right. Slowdown proposals gathered up and presented for easy listening. Read the discussion, though, if you're just tuning in. Don't want to go back over the same ground:

Tech
All Latin to Orthodox
All Orthodox to Moslem
Ottoman Empire to Chinese in 1615

Inflation
-Base 5% inflation will be added after every session. It cannot go below this and will be restored as necessary at rehosts and between sessions.
-In 1740, a one-shot increase of 15% will be added, making the total at that time 40%
-If necessary, the base will be readjusted up or down if I feel it isn't having the desired effect

CCs
-Limited to 10

Fortifications
-Medium everywhere in Europe
-Unlimited in the Low Countries
-Large in mountains
-Unlimited in capitals and COTs
-Small in the colonies

Do we even want to bother with a base tax scale?

Sounds good. Don't forget all muslim tech to chinese too, not just Ottos. And no, I don't think we need to worry about a base tax scale.
 

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Damocles said:
Aye, the more I think about it, the more I consider that the real problem is income and tech. Barnius only achieved a 500 warship fleet around the time where he had a massive, almost unchallenged trade income. Gotta slow down tech and income tho. Something has to be done. Too many people max trade and infra by the early 1700s.

I strongly suggest we to try to achieve most of the effects with inflation adjustment. Forts are really expensive and should be covered with that.

2 countres per alliance should mean more naval combat so i believe navies will not be so large. England is looking an ally who is willing to sink the enemy fleets every now and than just for fun :D

About inflation and tech costs: let's be careful: Mach II saw all countries with max land, 6 countries with max trade, 5 countries with max infra and 4 countries with max naval. Could be "better", but average additional inflation of 15% (0-30% gradual increase) with the current patch could perhaps mean much.
 

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Damocles said:
It gets to the point to where its the only thing that matters. Armies are meaningless, ducats is meaningless, all you do is pull together a huge army and assault as much as you can, where raw troops wins the day.

Its all very accurate if we're playing a WWI game, but I sadly miss the intricacies of maneuver that are mostly apparent in the first 100 years. Maybe its because I've played half a hundred games. But I'd like to see the early and mid game drawn out a bit more.

But that's what I like also :)

Although I miss the point of lowering the forts, if that's the goal :confused:
 

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Barni,

Then you're missing the point of this entire discussion.

Forts, above a certain level, make war of maneuver and set battle impossible. This is evident in every single game in the history of EU II MP.

Moreso, however, when we're cutting manpower drastically through CC restrictions and inflation (and perhaps a tech change).

All,

Also, I mistyped.

After the 1740 adjustment, inflation is 65%. This seems like a doable figure to me, others may disagree... I certainly want to see base inflation over 50 by Napoleon.
 

Stonewall

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Damocles said:
RADICAL PROPOSAL

Move all Latin tech countries to Orthodox tech.
Move all Orthodox tech countries to Muslim tech.
Move all Muslim tech countries to China tech.

I'll mention that china tech is still pretty damn good and far better then exotic. Its 1.4, compared to muslim tech being 1.3. Orthodox tech is around 1.2.

EDIT: At this speed, everyone will progress about 10-15% slower down the tech tree. It dosen't seem like much of a difference, but it is combined with HG's inflation rules.

I'm not playing in your game, but I think that he easiest way to slow tech growth isn't to change tech groups, but to modify the religion.csv file and give a 10-15% penalty for every religion. You don't need to worry about tech group changing events, like the 1615 Ottoman event, or the Peter the Great event.

For example, if you set the penalty at 15%. Reformed currently gets a 3 point bonus to rsearch, it would get a 12 point penalty. Catholic, which recieves a -1 to tech research, would now recieve a -16. Do this for every religion and your problem appears to be solved. You can even do it with regards to income if you think that income is too high. Give a universal production, trade, or income tax reduction. Theoretically this would eliminate the need for inflation adjustments every session. the only issue is making sure everyone, including subs has the correct religion file.
 

Wyvern

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Damocles said:
It gets to the point to where its the only thing that matters. Armies are meaningless, ducats is meaningless, all you do is pull together a huge army and assault as much as you can, where raw troops wins the day.

Its all very accurate if we're playing a WWI game, but I sadly miss the intricacies of maneuver that are mostly apparent in the first 100 years. Maybe its because I've played half a hundred games. But I'd like to see the early and mid game drawn out a bit more.
Either I'm missing something or you are :D. If you reduce manpower and then reduce forts as seems to be the proposal then what are you actually realistically gaining from the exercise? Assaulting the now generally lower forts still becomes the order of the day, except now even more so. :p

The reduced fort rule is only going to make the assault approach even more prevalent before the Napoleonic times when normally it's only when your land tech passes land50 that assaulting against the larger forts becomes practical. I don't see how these changes are going to accomplish what you say you're aiming for.

Machiavelli was always about AAR's and roleplay, not straighjacketing things to history and trying to make everything historically accurate. I humbly think HG and yourself are getting carried away, though HG moreso than yourself :D.
 

HolisticGod

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Stonewall,

That's a very good idea.

Unfortunately, it can't be modified within the save, and therefore requires a seperate version of EU II. We have to avoid that.

Gary,

We're not reducing forts to min. or small. They're being capped at medium, with plenty of exceptions.

It's the right balance.

We aren't straightjacketing anything-we're taking a game that is essentially a trivial excercise for the last eighty years and putting it into the perspective of the time period. On this point, as the last session evidenced, Mach II was an utter failure. It's not going to happen through role-playing, that much is obvious.
 

juv95hrn

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I like the suggestion of patching EU2 to disallow SOL and Galleys to carry troops. Realistic and would make anyone ever build transports.

Im not sure about the entire debate at hand. In DON2 Holland could easily field around 800 ships of the line, where maintenace limit lay. Economically 2000 could have been built without problems but they would have been to "expensive" too support. Tech was maxed out around 1700 but still I had severe problems winning naval engagements at 2-1 odds with +10-15 levels of tech differing... all due to the lack of admirals. This is saying that I agree that there are too much money in the game and that allows the construction of unhistorically large fleets and armies, but this is far from the only problem in the game. This is a flaw of the game at its current patching. Does it need fixing for Mach 3? Seems most people like to think this. Is adding inflation a good solution? Yes it seems like the best solution at hand at the moment. Will this make the game better/harder/different/unfair for smaller/larger/richer/poorer states? Who knows? To me it seems like the best solution so far thus I support it.
 

HolisticGod

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All,

I should add, some of these changes simply aren't going to appeal to everyone. Though the CC cap and fortress rules are very simple and easily followed/enforced, particularly with a parser that makes corrections automatically, and inflation, tech switching, etc., that don't directly involve the players, we run into the two big questions that haunt MP right now:

1. How do you strike a balance between players? What Damo, Slargos and I are working on is intended to make the game more realistic, more difficult and more dependent on tactical skill and economic wisdom. We're slowing down income, technology and construction, and creating a model for the Napoleonic wars.

This just doesn't interest some people. To the contrary, it's the precise opposite of what most EU II players want, and Gary is a prime example. All understandable.

However, Machiavelli is a franchise apart. Its players are willing to try things other groups aren't, put in more work and take more time and, generally, give up the easy win. Mach II was a step in the right direction, but if you take a look at the vast majority (including the GM, for instance, or me, when I got fed up with things) it was played at the core like any other EU II game. I don't want this to be any other EU II game, because any other EU II game means the following:

A. Sacrifice of all historicity. I'm not talking about conquests, wars, size, rise and decline. I'm talking about the framework in which we're operating, which shouldn't be beatable.

B. Ease. I've won full MP games with England twice, Russia once (to a point), the OE thrice, France thrice, Austria twice, Sweden twice, Spain once and Lorraine once (minors). In almost every case, the competition was as good or better than the current roster. I know Damo can say the same, Slargos too, probably Mulli. Gary himself has some experience. :D Even if you get the very best EU players around for every vital slot, it's a rote game. No challenge, no back-and-forth.

C. WWI epic front warfare. When you can replace half a million men with ease, a hundred warships with ease, there's absolutely zero excitement in any battle. And very little in the way of "genius." Just being more consistently awake than the other guy.

D. Absurdly rich, fortified, teched up countries that aren't worth the effort to invade and very rarely can be beaten anyway.

I don't want to play this. I'll bend to the will of the majority, from within the game, but I strongly suggest we take measures, preferably these, against A-D.

But not everyone is at the same skill level or has the same skills or the same interests.

2. Overcoming flaws in the game engine. Idealistically, Johan would have the time to fix forts, MP, tech (the fabled exponential cost), shipyards, CCs, etc., but he doesn't. Not right now. And he also has to consider singleplayer in all the decisions he makes.

This leaves us to, imperfectly, create a ruleset that compensates. The three province rule, for instance-good stuff. It's about 10% of the battle. You can't go that far and stop-it creates as many problems as it solves.

Yes, we're probably going to end up with slightly more in the way of rules than Mach II (not much more-note that the Guidelines are vital only to the GM).

But if we get a better game because of it, and I believe we will, so what?