Machiavelli III: From Dawn to Decadence

[HolisticGod]

Raw Details
Scenario:M3 1520 (based on PE 1520 1.11)
Playtime: Tuesdays, 1900 GMT
Gamemaster: Devil (95526937)
Type: RP/AAR-oriented
Openings: None, but I do have a waiting list for interested parties
Subs: Always welcome. Just post your ICQ number, or ICQ/PM devil
After Action Report:From Dawn to Decadence

Roster:
England - Barnius (ICQ: 119779134)
Denmark - Fredrik (ICQ: 83278192) (Host)
Sweden - Damocles (ICQ: 158382754)
Russia - Byakhiam (ICQ: 328925130)
Poland - Conny (ICQ: 193370909)
France - Devil (ICQ: 95526937) (GM)
Austria - ForzaA (ICQ: 112746755)
Ottoman Empire - Aldo (ICQ: 37103483)
Venice - Juv (ICQ: 103632632)
Portugal - Robertus (ICQ: 125077996)
Spain- Patoche (ICQ: 304558401)
Holland - Sun (ICQ: 226082513)
Prussia - Dago (ICQ: 264408355)


Quick Guide to the Rules:
For Handy Reference and Subs

-No more than three European provinces in peace deals for coreligionists
-Colonies may not be taken in a European war until 1750
-No diplo-annexations (except where specified in the rules)
-A nation at -3 stab must accept the next stab-hitting peace offer, unless GM deems nation/alliance is making a comeback
-Galleys are restricted to the Baltic, Arabian coast and Mediterranean
-Han, Japanese and Cantonese culture provinces are off-limits until 1750
-Forts over medium cost three times their in-game price to build
-GM must be informed of all wars colonial or european including their goals, before war is declared.
-All wars must be RP'ed, hence diplomacy before any act of war is required. If a RP is not deemed acceptable by the GM, the war will be considered invalid, and white peace will be force signed.
Check this post often

Breaking a rule results in punishment

 

[HolisticGod]

Rules

Warfare and Diplomacy

• A maximum of three European provinces can be taken by an alliance during a war
  
  -Centers of Trade count as 2 provinces
  -This rule is void after 1750
  -Wars with Muslim nations are exempt​
• Only two player countries can be in the same alliance; a third may join in the event of war but must leave as soon as it's over
• If at -3 stab and not in the process of making a major comeback, you must accept the next stab-hitting peace offer
• Taking colonies (and not full cities over 5,000) in peace deals will only cost 0 BB, even if you are in an offensive war
• Taking colonial cities (over 5,000) in peace deals will only cost 1 BB, even if you are in an offensive war
• Map trading is prohibited before 1700; map stealing is prohibited before 1650
• A nation in Europe may not be diplo-annexed if it consists of four provinces or more
  
  -A one-province nation must be vassalized for fifty years before it can be diplo-annexed
  -A two-province nation must be vassalized for seventy-five years before it can be diplo-annexed
  -A three-province nation must be vassalized for a century before it can be diplo-annexed
  -There are no diplo-annexations in the Holy Roman Empire by Catholic states​
• Force-conversions must be observed for at least ten years
• If an in-game peace treaty is broken in a situation where war will result in a stab hit, the party in original violation must immediately DOW unless otherwise agreed

Economy and Construction

• Fortresses in Europe over Medium cost three times their game price to build
  
  -If a country recieves a random fortification effort, it may choose to give up one or more of the levels (over medium) as long as the GM is notified of all provinces immediately; otherwise, they will be treated like regular forts
  -ROTW forts may be expanded to medium; ROTW COTs to large
  -The Netherlands may expand its forts to max at regular price
  -Forts destroyed in assaults may be rebuilt at regular price​
• Conscription Centers may be built according to the following:
  
  Quality 1-4: 1
  Quality 5: 2
  Quality 6: 4
  Quality 7: 6
  Quality 8: 8
  Quality 9: 10
  Quality 10: 14​
  -If Quality drops below the above levels the requisite number of Conscription Centers shall be removed​
• Inflation shall be injected into the economy in 1580 (15%), 1640 (20%), 1700 (20%), 1740 (10%) and 1790 (20%), approximate. The GM shall change these dates and reduce/increase the numbers as necessary

Restricted Areas

• The Caribbean is off-limits to European colonization until 1620, with the exception of pre-colonized Spanish territories
• Galleys are restricted to the Mediterranean (east of Gibraltar), the Baltic Sea (east of Skagerack) and the Arabian coastline
• Until the ToT ends, Spain and Portugal may only colonise ToT areas
• No colonisation beyond TP's is allowed in India and provinces east of India until 1600, except by the Dutch
• Each nation is allowed a single level 1 colony in the India/Indonesia area to facilitate exploring
• Persian, Han, Cantonese and Japanese provinces are off-limits unless received by event
  
  -Persian is allowed after 1720
  -The Cantonese COTs are allowed after 1750​
• Prussia is off-limits until the inheritance, unless Brandenburg goes AI

Colonies

• No colonies may be taken in a European war before 1750
• Any country can declare a colonial war, which will be fought only overseas and can be force-peaced once one side has lost its entire presence in a region and is not, in the GM's opinion, making a comeback
  
  -The GM will determine what constitutes a reasonable peace deal and what precipitates a full-fludged war
  -A player must consult the GM in advance, to make certain a colonial war is reasonable​
• Culture will change in all human-made colonies after nationalism disappears
• After 1750, all wars are world wars

Let me know if we're missing anything. The discussion is scattered over 752 posts, but I believe I got it all.

Guidelines

Manners and Gameplay

• Fighting a war against an AI-run player nation is not allowed. A white peace must be signed immediately if it still happens somehow and the player can't be picked up.
• Limited wars (i.e. wars where both parties agree to limit the scale of the war - a gentleman's war, so to say) are encouraged. The parties involved should inform the GM that this is what they agree to do and they must abide by it except by mutual acclimation
• Avoid alliances, official or unofficial, of unending duration
• Avoid defensive pacts that create WWI-style epic alliances-this was a period of far less diplomatic interconnectedness
• Avoid fighting to the death. One province, a handful of colonies, a war indemnity-these were not subjects over which Monarchs gambled their whole fortunes
• We all know what gaminess is. Most of the truly egregious behavior is covered in the rules, but I absolutely reserve the right to stop or edit anything outside the parameters of religion, culture, politics, et al, in the period. This includes, for example, Austria and the Ottoman Empire peaceably partitioning Hungary, Venice and France partitioning Italy under Francios I, France and the Habsburgs mysteriously finding common ground in 1520 where before they were on the very brink of war, loansharking, CRC, manufacturing CBs, going opposite directions in events and play. If it's unquestionably out of line, I have no problem stepping in.
• Feel free to abuse and question me. I'm not going to be offended and I'm certainly not going to get angry, but under no circumstances will I permit some of the infighting and personal attacks that went on in Mach II and previously in this thread. It causes players to quit, wars to be fought with no basis in RP or, for that matter, in-game interests, distorts the chief object here, which is to produce a higher minded brand of EU II, and most importantly, frankly, it ruins my fun. If you can't help yourself and have to vent, blame the GM. Do not go after one another.

Historical Events

• In general, event choices should correspond to a country's policies, ideology, role-play and diplomacy. I'm not going to be an unrelenting bastard about this, but any requests for RP-related edits or complaints about other players' RP fidelity will be considered with it firmly in mind. And, of course, if something is glaring enough I'll overrule the King, Sultan, Emperor, etc.
• A handful of choices are required unless certain conditions are met, namely---
  
  -Spain must take the "A" option in one of the Moor's events
  -In the eventuality of a Spanish succession war, Austria will receive core shields on the Spanish Netherlands/Italy possessions
  -The Dutch must be released by 1580 by whomever owns the lowlands. The Dutch player must then break vassalage by 1585 and DOW their former master simulating the Dutch revolt for independence. The three province rule will be waived, but the master is allowed only two years to retake the Netherlands in their entirety before it's reimposed. In case of total victory within two years, Holland will be edited and BB erased
  -Everyone must select “A” option in the Dutch revolt events
  -Russia is required to endure to the ToT
  -The Ottomans must take the Muslim tech group option in the 1615 event
  -Russia must take the "A" option in the Creation of the Patriarchate
  ​

Succession and Vassalization

• If one player is vassalized by another, he is expected to act like one
• After five years, a vassal may choose to fight for independence, but must---
  
  -Break vassalization
  -Declare war​
• Successions forced by event must either be accepted according to the above rules or fought directly and immediately, but stab will be restored (as in the cases of Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Russia). Vassalization is not required where it isn't imposed by event, but the subject must grant military access to the master
• Successions forced through war will be edited. If, for example, Spain launches the Armada and forces Elizabeth to wed, the Spanish monarch list will be in effect unless and until England declares independence. Likewise, if Spain chooses the Habsburg branch but is brought to heel by France, the Bourbons will sit upon the throne
• Countries that've been forced to accept a foreign monarch (any act of vassalization if specified-including 100% peace) should act like it until they're ready to rise up. I don't want to see Philip II fighting himself in the Indies, however historical that may sound

Editing

• I'll do all the usual things between sessions, including province swaps, payments, complicated peace deals, small bug fixing and misfired events
• Players are asked to get province IDs for their own edits, and some of these will not be done without them
• I'm very interested in special RP edits, but only in certain situations. For instance, if a Thirty Years War crops up and alliances need to be expanded or changed (Bavaria fighting on the side of France on behalf of the Protestants) outside the game engine, or if I feel a twist is needed to shake things up. Player requests are less likely, but the chance that I'll even propose it to the group gets better for people who role-play and routinely post AARs.
• No editing will be done during a session unless it's absolutely necessary and quickly accomplished. If it's the former but not the latter, appropriate compensation will be given

After Action Reports

• Write them
• AARs are not required. There's no way to enforce it, it doesn't do much to enhance gameplay, it's not much in the way of fun and people have, you know, lives. I treat them as a special sideshow-something I'd very much like to see and something that I'm going to try (and probably fail) to do regularly, and also a good way to expand and advance the diplomatic and role-playing aspects of Mach III. I encourage them, support them, will cowrite, will edit for non-English speakers who are a tad abashed, whatever, and a lot of special considerations and edits won't happen without them, but that's it. I can't really do more, and at any rate I won't

Role-play

• This is required. Most discussion while the game is running should be in-character, whether as a court chronicler, a monarch, a herald, a diplomat, a general, a jester, a concubine. Whatever. If you send a message about war, peace, indemnities, deals, private or not, do it with a little flare-it isn't hard and it adds a lot to the play. Leave OOC to rehosts and the main thread
• Use the AAR thread for treaties, dispatches, announcements. They don't have to be stylish or lengthy-they can even be diplomatic back-and-forth-but this time 'round I want to see it with at least a third the replies of the main thread
• Don't hesitate to make announcements on events, royal marriages, treaties, alliances, wars, battles, etc.-I like them, and if other people consider them clutter... Tough.

 

[Damocles]

Hopefully, we will rise above the first two Machiavellis with even more bitching and backstabbing then ever before.

 

[Damocles]

All,

Issues pending:

-Spain. All suggestions, and vehement counter-suggestions from Atilla , welcome.
-Forts in Germany. Damo, you have some references? I'd hate to have to dig them up myself.
-Russia. Mongol in 1620. Ruthenian under Peter the Great (probably in 1709). Trade dropped to two. Land dropped to six.
-Austria. I suggest that Vienna be selectable in an Ottoman peace demand, with the choice of relocating the capital to Innsbruck or Prague (assuming...), as historically.

Also, any objections to the rules are still viable until Thursday or Friday. The reason I got the thread up before Mach II ends tomorrow, aside from Mulli's lobbying, is to get this reorganized and laid to rest. So speak now or forever hold your... Peace.

AAR thread is coming. Just, shock and awe, writing a real bit of AAR to start us off.

Forts in Germany: The only reliable source I have is from Machiavelli. He stated that the reason why no one could ever unify or conquer any parts of Germany was because it was the most fortified land in all the world. It would take more then a year and a sizable army to conquer any of the provinces, and thus was undoable.

There was massive division and strife in Germany, yet even relatively minor German powers could flaunt Habsburg rule because it would take a major effort to wage war on them. Look at the 30 YW for examples of how difficult it was, and that was the greatest conflict that Europe had ever seen up till then.

Mongol Culture: I don't think Russia should get Mongol culture until 1650 at the earliest.

Ruthenian Culture: I don't think Russia should get Ruthenian culture until the final partitioning of Poland event. Up until then, they don't even have CBs on the provinces! So not until around 1792.

 

[ForzaA]

Hopefully, we will rise above the first two Machiavellis with even more bitching and backstabbing then ever before.

I agree about the backstabbing, as that promotes more dynamic alliances

also shouldn't it be that galleys are allowed EAST of Gibraltar and Skagerack?

on Germany.. judging from what Damo says about Machiavelli (the real one, that is, I assume) I'd guess almost all should be medium forts. (which make them conquerable if you're willing to settle for quite a siege.. or throw hundreds of thousands at em ) and would make them about equal to general fortification levels in the rest of Europe (human played, that is) by the 30yw approx.

mongol; when's the last siberia event? and nerchiinsk?
ruthenian; wasn't there some pro-Russian Ukrainian revolt somewhere down the line? (don't know dates, may even be completely wrong)

 

[HolisticGod]

Roster
England-Barnius (119779134)
Spain-Attila (221032442)
Portugal-Robertus (125077996)
Venice-Juv (103632632)
Austria-Forzaa (112746755)
Brandenburg-HG (273839083)
Denmark-Nor (95526937)
Sweden-Damocles (158382754)
Russia-Mulliman (119912415)
Ottoman Empire-Aldo (37103483)
Holland (when it forms)-Archduke (166004748)
France-Devil (95526937)
Poland-Slargos (4070257)

 

[Damocles]

I certainly hope we won't see Denmark fighting to the death to say, not lose Narvik.

Because it really dissapoints me when a limited war begins, and its quite lost, but one side will drag it out forever and ever and then expect to only give up what they would otherwise have lost in a limited war. But by that point, its become total war and quite silly to ask such.

I only mention this because of a recent incident where a Denmark took 5 years to be beaten out of Norway and then kept the war going 10 years longer until it fell due to rebels. Good deal for Sweden, but ruined the game for everyone else.

I'll play fair and reasonably. People who play with me know that I am a fan of modest demands and limited wars.

 

[devil]

I certainly hope we won't see Denmark fighting to the death to say, not lose Narvik.

Because it really dissapoints me when a limited war begins, and its quite lost, but one side will drag it out forever and ever and then expect to only give up what they would otherwise have lost in a limited war. But by that point, its become total war and quite silly to ask such.

I only mention this because of a recent incident where a Denmark took 5 years to be beaten out of Norway and then kept the war going 10 years longer until it fell due to rebels. Good deal for Sweden, but ruined the game for everyone else.

I'll play fair and reasonably. People who play with me know that I am a fan of modest demands and limited wars.

HAHA BS damo, I can already imagine the baltic empire, all hail damo king of the kalmar union.

 

[unmerged(11031)]

I just have one question. What if someone, say the French make an effot to become the Holy Roman Emperor, like it did during the election of Charles VI, but in fact succeed? What happens to the guarrentees of Independance by Austria to the rest of the electors?

 

[devil]

I just have one question. What if someone, say the French make an effot to become the Holy Roman Emperor, like it did during the election of Charles VI, but in fact succeed? What happens to the guarrentees of Independance by Austria to the rest of the electors?

They should be moved

 

[unmerged(10146)]

I'll play fair and reasonably. People who play with me know that I am a fan of modest demands and limited wars.

Yes, but unlimited number of them usually in unmatchly opportunistic occasions :rofl:

 

[unmerged(10146)]

HG,

you somewhere mentioned newly boosted English manpower in the PEAoE 111 will be returned to more reasonable levels. That would be most welcommed.

Also, a few suggestions for Portugal:

- rather important in my oppinion: give Portugal one more explorer between 1520 and 1530 or 1530 and 1540; the 1520 scenario gives Portugal only one historical explorer for 10 years (De Queros 1515-1530) and than for a VERY long time nothing (Antonio Fernandes 1602-1624); a human player would by 1520 explore more with 1492-1520 historical explorers, as will human players with all other countres that are yet to receive their historical explorers
- the same trade technology as Venice and Genoa (either raise Portugal to 5 or lower the other two to 4)
- manpower/year too low (4) comparing to Venice (10) and Denmark (8); Portugal has a lot to protect i.e. maintain a relatively large standing army, especially since mercenaries are not reliable source and possible only in Europe
- Goa could perhaps be a low population Catholic colony, but not too important really

 

[HolisticGod]

Barnius,

Any suggestions for strengthening Portugal will be met with highly amused derision.

 

[HolisticGod]

Robertus,

It seems to me that editing the guaruntees would not be very difficult.

But we might consider, for simplicity's sake, leaving them to the Austrians ad infinium unless they lose the crown in a peace deal.

 

[HolisticGod]

All,

Looking at the effects of PE, I think Spain is pretty well settled as is.

New issues:

1. Russia must choose Option A in the formation of the Patriarchate. I can't imagine someone taking B in an RP game, but it ought to be a requirement, particularly with Mongol coming in the seventeenth century and Ruthenian in the eighteenth.

2. Five CCs/shipyards max or a similiar rule.

 

[Damocles]

All,

Looking at the effects of PE, I think Spain is pretty well settled as is.

New issues:

1. Russia must choose Option A in the formation of the Patriarchate. I can't imagine someone taking B in an RP game, but it ought to be a requirement, particularly with Mongol coming in the seventeenth century and Ruthenian in the eighteenth.

2. Five CCs/shipyards max or a similiar rule.

I suggest ten CCs, ten shipyards max.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Barnius,

Any suggestions for strengthening Portugal will be met with highly amused derision.

Which is very strange if we are reasonable people, especially since all suggestions are explained

Portugal having only one historical explorer for the entire 80 years of play is a serious handicap, and if it is lost by some mistake or bad luck, it could decide the entire Portuguese future. And to answer an obvious question, Machiavelli II Portugal didn't get a random explorer before it was not needed any more.

But if you are reluctant to make this adjustment from the start, a good solution could be to address this after the session: if Portugal fails to achieve enough with this one explorer he has, you could edit in one more for the second session. I am ready to offer my humble expertise when deciding what should have been achieved.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

All,

Looking at the effects of PE, I think Spain is pretty well settled as is.

New issues:

1. Russia must choose Option A in the formation of the Patriarchate. I can't imagine someone taking B in an RP game, but it ought to be a requirement, particularly with Mongol coming in the seventeenth century and Ruthenian in the eighteenth.

2. Five CCs/shipyards max or a similiar rule.

NOOOOOOO, what about my goal to have 2000 warships as England?
Although it would also mean a more active ways to maintain the Two Fleet Standard...

I am not too happy with this. Portugal with only 3 European ports would be handicapped with low support limit. And let's face it, we can't put CCs and shipyards in the same level, since shipyards serve almost exclusively for higher support limit, while CCs have much more effects.
There are in-game limitations. If we are not happy with them, we can put some additional limitations, but not so rigid. One possibility is for example: max(A, "in-game limit"/B) with A=10 and B=2 for example.

 

[TheArchduke]

Russia shouldn´t get greek culture and cbs over Greece. That would be an idea for a must in an event..

 

[ForzaA]

2. Five CCs/shipyards max or a similiar rule.

what for? Doubt it will improve anything balance-wise