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Damocles

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Both Austria and the Ottomans have conflicting many many conflicting CBs. And there is the sense that the Ottomans SHOULD expand into Hungary. Besides, it is mostly Magyar culture anyways. The Ottomans already BEGIN the game with the vast majority of slavonic culture provinces. I hope you're not suggesting they should be given Magyar as well to encourage them to go for Hungary. Hell, the OE of Mach I didn't need encouragement to go for Vienna.
 

Damocles

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I mean...in the vast majority of games, the amount of christian territory that the OE can gobble up in the Balkans is a matter of pride and personal achievement. I'd be greatly surprised to seeing any Ottomans give up on it. Though, they already begin with almost all the slavonic culture provinces.
 

Damocles

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devil said:
Yeah I know, it just bothers me oe can live in eternal peace, and powertech.

Well. It is partly the Ottoman's neighbours responsibility to not allow such complacency. But a big part of it falls on the Turk's shoulders as well. They're supposed to be the most aggressive nation in the game! Its why I loooove playing them.

I mean. We've reached a pretty sad place in MP gaming where we think Austria and the Ottoman Empire who already have a dozen overlapping CBs, need to be given a totally incongruous and silly added fifth culture to make them fight. They should fight anyways.

I know that Mulletboy has grown out of his hesitance and overt caution a little bit. I don't know about Aldo. I've only really seen him in countries where it was good to be hesitant and cautious. Hopefully, he'll make the Ottomans the scourge of the Habsburgs. Especially since Austria and Spain are so benefitted in this setup. (and the Ottomans too!)
 

unmerged(15723)

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Damocles said:
I know that Mulletboy has grown out of his hesitance and overt caution a little bit. I don't know about Aldo. I've only really seen him in countries where it was good to be hesitant and cautious. Hopefully, he'll make the Ottomans the scourge of the Habsburgs.
This is my first time playing a major nation in a grand MP campaign like this but I will certainly take this possibility to test and improve my military capabilities. OE won't be the sissy it was in Mach II for sure! ;)

I have also studied Jarkko's and Damocles' OE playing in past campaigns with much interest. :)
 
Last edited:

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HolisticGod said:
-What's the consensus on leader swapping and selling? I'm inclined to support some mercenary options, provided they're limited and can't be a condition of a peace agreement.
while historically sound, I fear this opens up too much opportunity for exploit/unbalance.
-Purchasing explorers and conquistadors?
at a fairly high price, a good idea, also provided that you have the right mindset (ie. naval mostly)

-Expanding the forts in central France to prevent Charles V from winning an offensive war ahistorically easily? (as, for example, Duke and I did last game)
Not needed, this should be solvable with people's mindsets... fighting a limited war for Lombardia, not going for the whole of France

-Shipyard and in-place northern merchants, or increased tax base, for Denmark?
Shipyard, merchants OK, Basetax perhaps marginally (maybe 4 or 5 total)

-Boosting Venice with knowledge of Ganges, Isfahan and Shanghai?
I'd say Isfahan only.

-Putting Poland in Latin?
-Dividing Poland and Lithuania?
-Cutting Russia down a bit, particularly in trade and land tech?
Going back to the original Paradox setup for Poland (including latin->orthodox switch with the Union) might be a good idea, and with Russia reduced a bit, the risk of Russia overruning Lithuania ahistorically easy IMHO is no longer that much of a threat. Only problem may be that Poland cannot provide Austria-Hungary with sufficient support against the OE

-Reducing Spain's Carib colonies to Haiti and Cuba (with one city, probably in Hispanolia or Havana, and the rest at 2-3) to at least make competition there possible?
Competition, or rather the lack thereof in the Caribbean, is plagueing a lot of games, Afterall, despite the ToT France had a couple of colonies there, and when the Dutch came onto the colonial scene, there was room for them too, still.

-Adding a Mughal Empire?
does little in interaction with others, and IMHO unbalances the Asian situation


-Giving the OE Slavonic?
-Giving Austria Slavonic?
-Giving the OE Magyar?
I think these should depend on their actions. As it is, the Balkan is hardly worth fighting for in income and manpower, adding these cultures could do something to make the region more worthwile to fight over.


-Increasing base tax in India, to make it a profitable conquest as the south is now (historically) uncolonizable
Sounds good, though we will have to consider what it does in the India vs. SE Asia balance, ie. it might cause one or more of the Indians to go on an ahistorical conquest spree.

-Reducing the West African gold?
In favour

-Expanding a few German forts?
sounds good.


Slargos said:
Just tested this and confirmed that you can indeed.

If startdate is set later than current date, the guarantee is in effect until 5 years after teh startdate.

To me this sounds like a good solution then.. having Austria (in general they ARE the HRE all the time) guaranteeing the independence of all HRE states. If for some reason Austria manages to not get elected, then it should lose the benefits ofcourse. The HRE was remarkably unified when it came to defying outside threats.

HolisticGod said:
2. This is what I'd like to see. After 1750 it's realistic to see Europeans, especially the English, French and Dutch, taking control of East Asian trade. And should it spawn colonial wars, even better.

Perhaps there is some event around that time it can be coupled with? -1750- sounds a bit rigid (just like maptrading, which, IIRC was to be coupled with certain events too) For that matter, I would prefer ALL rigid dates concering rules instead be coupled to events.


As to the Dutch situation: coupled with the proposal about vasalships (overlord setting policies for the vasal in terms of colonisation etc. ) that is very close to the real situation, in which the Dutch were largely independent domestically and tradewise, but couldn't set their own foreign policies. Also, the Lowlands provided a LOT of the funding for Spanish AND Portuguese colonisation (mainly from trade and industry in Antwerp/Flanders)
 

Damocles

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Oh yes, and one more thing, Devil...The idea that a 1v1 war in Machiavelli between Poland and Russia would see the latter beat is a terrible slur against Peter's abilities. Our tech is equal, and his income is about three times mine. He also has leaders (*GASP* What are those?) and about five times the manpower capacity. He also only has two borders to watch, while Poland has well...All borders to watch. Only Mullet has kept Peter from devouring me with his endless legions while Poland was busy fighting an all out war with France.
 

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HolisticGod said:
-The Ottomans must take the Muslim tech group option in the 1615 event unless they use one tick every decade toward innovativeness until they reach 10 (by 1590). Moreover, in keeping with the open-mindedness that characterized the Five Good Sultans and in order to perpetuate that policy even as the clerics, nobles and scantily clad belly dancers pound upon the gate, no provinces but Orthodox may be converted period and the C option must be taken in all three Beys events. If any of those conditions are not met or the Empire drops below inno 10 at any time after 1615, it goes Muslim. And this is not an excuse to stay out of the Balkans and Hungary. I've read Orientalism too and I know the East had tremendous potential and culture and a technological advantage over the West for a thousand years and it could've trumped Europe, but it didn't and it won't. Withdraw means stagnation.[/indent][/list][/list]
I have no problem with OE having Muslim tech but I can't say I grasp all that is said in the above post. But we will probably have time to talk this through before the start.

The guidelines seems fine to me over all. Good work HG!
 

Damocles

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BTW, the idea that all those slavonic provinces are too poor to fight over is an urban myth. They are perfectly fine provinces. I've seen many wars waged over them. Poland for example absorbed many Romanian orthodox provinces and German protestant ones. It didn't need to be given the cultures to expand.

If Austria and Ottomans, who already have CBs over nearly all of Central and SE Europe need to be given a fifth culture to fight, we'd have to call shennanigans. They should be fighting anyways. The provinces are already plenty worth it. Besides, you'd have to give the Ottomans Magyar and Czech, not slavonic, to simulate the fighting. (Hungary). They already start with all the slav provinces.
 

Damocles

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Aldo said:
I have no problem with OE having Muslim tech but I can't say I grasp all that is said in the above post. But we will probably have time to talk this through before the start.

lol. I didn't grasp 90% of it either.

I think the rules should be amended to say,

"Spain MUST choose option A in the moors and Dutch events." Period. None of this inno 10 dancing around. and

"Ottomans MUST choose Option A in the Beys events."

Frankly, those events are probably the biggest offenders in the realm of things that just shouldn't be that easily decided, and are greatly unbalancing. It is not forcing any player down a specific path. It is more like fixing an exploit.
 

ForzaA

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Damocles said:
Poland for example absorbed [snip] German protestant ones. It didn't need to be given the cultures to expand.
hardly comparable:
1) your Poland in Mach2 had noone to fear while getting those provinces. (treaty with Russia, treaty with Austria (and later made clear they couldn't challenge you) Whereas if Austria goes to full scale war for this region, the HRE is completely open (and they themselves, too) to France and perhaps Poland.
2) Those German protestant provinces are on average I think twice as valuable as those Balkan provinces.
 

HolisticGod

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Damo,

Slavonic is important because without it, creating vassals out of the Balkans and not even bothering Hungary is a better course of action than curbing Austrian power, as Austria, likewise without Slavonic, is unlikely to bother with a counter-crusade once it's massive.

I'd support Magyar for the OE as well.

Aldo,

Ottomans had very little trouble from anyone but the Mamluks and Shiites until the mid-late seventeenth century. As I said, culture plays far too great a role in EU II prior to the advent of nationalism toward 1800.

As for your event, and Spain's, the idea is to create the historical devil's choice, between progressive and tolerant policies that offend the clergy and leave the realm disunited and sinking further and further into political and technological morass. But as you, the OE, don't care for the complication, I'll take it out and you'll just go with the A choice.
 

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ForzaA said:
hardly comparable:
1) your Poland in Mach2 had noone to fear while getting those provinces. (treaty with Russia, treaty with Austria (and later made clear they couldn't challenge you) Whereas if Austria goes to full scale war for this region, the HRE is completely open (and they themselves, too) to France and perhaps Poland.
2) Those German protestant provinces are on average I think twice as valuable as those Balkan provinces.

I had no one to fear? lol. I only survived by playing off my neighbours as long as I did.
 
Last edited:

Damocles

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HolisticGod said:
Damo,

Slavonic is important because without it, creating vassals out of the Balkans and not even bothering Hungary is a better course of action than curbing Austrian power, as Austria, likewise without Slavonic, is unlikely to bother with a counter-crusade once it's massive.

I'd support Magyar for the OE as well.

Aldo,

Ottomans had very little trouble from anyone but the Mamluks and Shiites until the mid-late seventeenth century. As I said, culture plays far too great a role in EU II prior to the advent of nationalism toward 1800.

As for your event, and Spain's, the idea is to create the historical devil's choice, between progressive and tolerant policies that offend the clergy and leave the realm disunited and sinking further and further into political and technological morass. But as you, the OE, don't care for the complication, I'll take it out and you'll just go with the A choice.


Giving Austria a fifth culture, and giving Ottomans a fifth and sixth culture, just to make them fight, is extremely rediculous. Perhaps we should get players who will fight over territory that is worth fighting over without needing to be given silly extra cultures as incentive. Do we need to give Austria italian culture to make them fight over Italy-

=======BREAKING NEWS BULLETIN============

Why not give EVERY country the major culture of their next closest power to make them fight? Give Denmark German, Sweden Russian, French, Iberian, German and Italy, Austria Italian, Spain French and Arabic, Russia Lithuanian and RUthenian, Poland Russian and German, etc etc? Because if we give Austria and OE 3 more cultures, its only fair to do it for the rest.
 

HolisticGod

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Damo,

For starters, neither the OE nor Austria had much trouble (that isn't simulated in events) with Hungary or the Balkans until the eighteench century.

Secondly, most of the regions you mentioned are fought over because, even without the right culture, they're worth the effort. To the Ottomans, at least, Magyar and Slavonic provinces are not.

Thirdly, the OE already had Slavonic.

Fourthly, I'd love to see two players willing to put conflict and role-play above game interests, but I'm pretty skeptical... In Mach II, Mulli was beaten up twice-once because he tried to fight on two fronts simultaneously and once because Spain landed in Africa and sent Alba to the Balkans. It was only saved from taking a major loss by France and England.

After that, she (wisely) withdrew and played for wealthier spots, even when it was clearly possible for her to take whatever she wanted.

If I hedged my bets, that's about what I'd expect here as well.
 

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I think handing out free cultures, especially when both nations already have 4 each, is the wrong way to go about it. But I guess we'll see what other people think. :D

Perhaps I'm a bit biased, since my Ottomans in Mach I went ahead and swallowed all of SE europe without needed extra incentive against Peter's Uber-Austria.
 

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Damo,

And Peter was given Italian...

A move you supported, if I recall.

The real question is whether Aldo is willing to beat the hell out of Forza, and whether Forza will consider his inheritance "Hungary," as in the spare provinces he picks up automatically, or the Crown of Hungary and all its subjects. :D

I s'pose I could settle the question and play the Turk myself...