Machiavelli II: The Rebirth

[Wyvern]

A few things:

1. OE will be switched to Muslim tech as per the event choice they should have pick. I have sympaphy with Mulliman, but if he felt circumstance had changed enough that such a change in the event rule was ok he should have raised it in this forum thread before last session for discussion.

2. HRE - What's done is done over Bavaria. As GM I was too lenient there mainly because I didn't want to be called biased being France. Austria shouldn't be annexing her Prince's, period. So no more unless France launches a big invasion across the Rhine ala Mach1 and that was much later in the game.

3. Portugal will be editted -3 stab for breaking the 3 province rule over Japan, this to simulate a second dow on Japan. Also they'll get a couple more BB points added. Or I'll edit 2 province's back to Japan - will discuss this with Barnius.

4. A new player for Spain will be sought. One who will rp and contribute AAR's. I'm not keeping Spain as HG for just one more session after which he'll leave anyway just so HG can have some mad fit of percieved revenge just because I enforced the 3 province rule on him. I've also had enough of his general bad attitude for which he's been warned before.

5. If Slargos would like to continue as a different country then I'm willing to play Sweden and he can take France, or he could take Spain if he likes which I'd prefer.

6. If not then we need a new host. I got a memory upgrade to my PC last weekend, the lack of which had been causing a lot of my crashes, we'd need to test it out but I could probably host as well as Peter now, though sadly not in Slargos's league.

7. The game lost a lot of it's flavour for me last night. Much because of the bickering to be honest. With Slargos leaving I wonder if I really want to continue investing the considerable time required in organising this game. I'll suspend judgement on that for the moment...

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Wyvern
3. Portugal will be editted -3 stab for breaking the 3 province rule over Japan, this to simulate a second dow on Japan. Also they'll get a couple more BB points added. Or I'll edit 2 province's back to Japan - will discuss this with Barnius.

The first war against Japan was over in 1602. Ended up with Portugal annexing 5 provinces. I honestly didn't even think about 3-province rule being applicable here: out of Europe, no-player nation...I just forgot about it. If I remembered it I could have accepted peace for 3 provinces in 1601.
For the second war in 1607 PTC had CB: Japan embargoed us!? Outrage! : It was over in a year or so.
Now, IF you want something done about this "problem", Peter can calculate how much money I got from owning some of Japanese provinces "too early". I would have 3 provinces in 1601, 5 provinces in 1607 (without stab loss) and all 6 in 1612 (again, without stab loss). From 1612 the situation would be the same as it was from 1608.
So if I broke 3-province rule, all I got fromit is some money and time for BB to decrease.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Wyvern
7. The game lost a lot of it's flavour for me last night. Much because of the bickering to be honest. With Slargos leaving I wonder if I really want to continue investing the considerable time required in organising this game. I'll suspend judgement on that for the moment...

RP will always used to support the arguments of the player himself.

As Peter has pointed out, everyone feels like he is RPing correctly.

I still like playing the game, but I take the RP-aspect seriously for myself as well as the rules, but maybe we should take them a bit more leisurely to avoid what I call "witch-hunting" and senseless arguments over RP.

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
RP will always used to support the arguments of the player himself.

As Peter has pointed out, everyone feels like he is RPing correctly.

I still like playing the game, but I take the RP-aspect seriously for myself as well as the rules, but maybe we should take them a bit more leisurely to avoid what I call "witch-hunting" and senseless arguments over RP.

If you nforce the rp element too loosely it will end up like other non-restrictive games I think.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Barnius
The first war against Japan was over in 1602. Ended up with Portugal annexing 5 provinces. I honestly didn't even think about 3-province rule being applicable here: out of Europe, no-player nation...I just forgot about it. If I remembered it I could have accepted peace for 3 provinces in 1601.

I know that feeling, I also had to check up on it when I hit on the Steppe Dummies the previous session (which is why they still have non-capital provinces left), but the rules are pretty clear on the issue: The Japanese provinces, while non-european, hardly qualify in the "colony of less than 5,000 population" category

To quote somebody annoying, but right: Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law

And if you cannot remember the rules, make a printout, dammit, and have it on hand to consult.

Anyway, if your argument is that a convenient CB would have permitted your conquests by this time without a stab penalty [obviously assuming that you could force a CB again in 1612 by spamming with merchants, which seems fair enough], the very least you should suffer is an extra +1BB for that hypothetical DOW. Talk it over with Wyvern or accept his current ruling.

----------​

The following is just for consideration and applies mainly to permanent players and to a lesser degree to substitutes, who may not be fully informed about what is going on.

When you buy into playing a game with a ruleset, please read the rules and follow them, will you? Not just the ones that are convenient, fair, easily remembered, or to your advantage: ALL OF THEM. I am not talking about the vague guidelines and the "spirit of the game" type postulates, but about the very precise list of game rules - in this case in the first post of the thread. You cannot miss them, really.

Sure, situations may arrive that would seem to invalidate a rule: Take it up with the GM, preferably between sessions if at all possible, do not just forge ahead hoping to get acceptance later on by presenting a fait accompli.

And sometimes (though less often than claimed!) a rule can be interpreted in various ways: In that case, ask the GM for a ruling.

And sometimes you inadvertently break a rule. It happens. So long as it is not a pattern, it is not really a problem. Accept the GMs arbitration rather than wrangling for every last bit of advantage. It really helps the game go along. It really, truly, does.



[Rhetorical question] If you cannot abide by this, what the hell are you doing playing in a game with such a ruleset?

[Rhetorical answer] Complaining and making everybody else miserable

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
If you nforce the rp element too loosely it will end up like other non-restrictive games I think.

Then reduce the number of players to a dedicated few. Don´t get me wrong but if we don´t replay history sometimes, I get the feeling that is what most people think RP is.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Kurtbrian = new perm?

Spain, France, Sweden....

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
I know that feeling, I also had to check up on it when I hit on the Steppe Dummies the previous session (which is why they still have non-capital provinces left), but the rules are pretty clear on the issue: The Japanese provinces, while non-european, hardly qualifies in the "colony of less than 5,000 population" category

True. As I said, I just wasn't thinking. To the extent that last week on a few occasions I practiced how the most efficiently finnish this war - and after the first practice I was THRILLED with the fact that I can take ALL 5 provinces (worth 98%) AND 50 d

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
To quote somebody annoying: Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law

Right 100% again, as usually

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Anyway, if your argument is that a convenient CB would have permitted your conquests by this time without a stab penalty [obviously assuming that you could force a CB again in 1612 by spamming with merchants, which seems fair enough], the very least you should suffer is an extra +1BB for that hypothetical DOW. Talk it over with Wyvern, will you?

Right, +1 BB and I will make an assessment how much money I got from owning some of those provinces too long. And higher stab costs during that time should be my punnishment for not being careful enough. Fair?

I completely agree with you,

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Aldo
Kurtbrian = new perm?

Spain, France, Sweden....

While I enjoy subbing every once in awhile. (I had fun both as England and Denmark) I'm not sure I would want a permanent spot. Partly because I would then have to play every tuesday for 4 hours which results in less sleep for me.
Partly because I then would have to write an AAR as each session, something I learned to dread while in mach I. I'm not good at writing and I don't enjoy it all but consider it a choir.
And the las part is that if I controlled the same country session after session, I would grow too attached to it, to not get depressed when something bad happens, and something bad will happen when you know my skills at warfare...

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Slargos, we definitelly need you! Not only for great hosting, great combat skills, but also for posting pictures

Here is the last income data:

Spain suffers really serious inflation.

Holland started trading, as expected. We will have to talk about some regulation on the market . Almost doubled her income in 2 decades! Holland also has 9 manufactories - mostly from events, but still !

Austria also made a signifficant improvement, but relatively the best is Brandenburg - well, relative is important, but not always

France and Spain are the only nations without manufactories. And while it's understandable for Spain (would have lost them), what is France thinking is a mistery... Especially since she is behind Spain in land tech.

In all, this graph is a REALLY NICE sight:rofl:

 

[kurtbrian]

Aldo?

What happened to danish income?

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

It says 1599 in the two right-most columns?

Anyhow, please take note how the time of troubles and years of warfare have taken their toll on the Russian economy... (And ignore the fact that tax revenues would be rather higher, were Russia at +2 stab rather than -3 stab due to the defensive war bug )

 

[unmerged(15723)]

quote
Kurtbrian says:

Aldo?

What happened to danish income?
- - -

Denmark has suffered low stab for some time now and trading hasn't gone very well.

But according to my calculations, the 100% increase in income is clearly within reach after next session. If my plans fall out fairly well of course.

 

[unmerged(5394)]

Originally posted by Hive
I switched to England when the war came... but the fact that England's home fleet consisted of only 52 warships made the fight against Portugal and Spain's armadas pretty futile. Add to that the fact that they have a higher naval tech than England...

I promoted some mayors in colonies, and expanded other colonies. I also built an art manufactory in London, and got inflation down. And I tried to repair the damage a braindead England did to trade.

But... I wasted some time and money trying to search for riches in West Africa - only to find out that the Ottoman heathens had already taken everything of value there...

don't worry , England's finest hour is still to come, a big thank You for sub-ing Yesterday, I really apreciated it, unfortunately You did not have the chance to prepare for war, in that case I feel the loss of the African colonies a bit GAMEY, but I'll have some revenge.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
It says 1599 in the two right-most columns?

Anyhow, please take note how the time of troubles and years of warfare have taken their toll on the Russian economy... (And ignore the fact that tax revenues would be rather higher, were Russia at +2 stab rather than -3 stab due to the defensive war bug )

Thanks, corrected.

Yes, at +2 stab Russia would have almost 50 d more

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Attila the Hun
don't worry , England's finest hour is still to come, a big thank You for sub-ing Yesterday, I really apreciated it, unfortunately You did not have the chance to prepare for war, in that case I feel the loss of the African colonies a bit GAMEY, but I'll have some revenge.

...after building some ships, investing in naval tech or even naval manufactories...in about 43 years, but who will than even remember there was something to revenge for!

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Wyvern

4. A new player for Spain will be sought. One who will rp and contribute AAR's. I'm not keeping Spain as HG for just one more session after which he'll leave anyway just so HG can have some mad fit of percieved revenge just because I enforced the 3 province rule on him. I've also had enough of his general bad attitude for which he's been warned before.

Let's see what HG says before the decission is made. Portugal has some plans with Spain and Spain made some promisses...

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Regarding info from the file.

Check this out! Should we have something like that after each session? If so, HOW to do it?

http://www.europa2.ru/cgi-bin/leagu...ic&season=Valkyrie.net&lang=eng&yearsave=1438

 

[unmerged(5394)]

yes, it is a sort of a deja vue


DECLARATION FROM HIS MAJESTY KING JAMES OF ENGLAND


I herewith confirm the purchasing of Louga, Nouakchott, and Nouadibuh aka Austrian Western Africa from Ferdinand II HRE, Archduke of Austria. The purchase is valid as from today 1 January 1622.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Attila the Hun
yes, it is a sort of a deja vue


DECLARATION FROM HIS MAJESTY KING JAMES OF ENGLAND


I herewith confirm the purchasing of Louga, Nouakchott, and Nouadibuh aka Austrian Western Africa from Ferdinand II HRE, Archduke of Austria. The purchase is valid as from today 1 January 1622.

Ratified. The sum is as usual not open to the public and will be transfered to Wyvern by Icq.