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Originally posted by Damocles
That is an rather inaccurate statement, master Mueller. ;)
Sure Pan Damocles - I wasn't there after all - just humbly suggesting to Peter that an extra 100K Russian troops in Ukraine led by 5/3/4/1 Vorotinski or even 4/2/3/ Sheremetyev would give you an additional chance to demonstrate your military brilliance ;)

Nothing personal, just a shame for such a talent to be left unused, I'm sure you understand :)
 

Damocles

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Originally posted by mueller
Sure Pan Damocles - I wasn't there after all - just humbly suggesting to Peter that an extra 100K Russian troops in Ukraine led by 5/3/4/1 Vorotinski or even 4/2/3/ Sheremetyev would give you an additional chance to demonstrate your military brilliance ;)

Nothing personal, just a shame for such a talent to be left unused, I'm sure you understand :)

Hmm..

That is a rather good point. :D

Tho, to the best of my knowledge...Polish ambition and Russian ambition lie in two completely opposite directions. Furthermore, Sigismund and his heir, Sigismund II are rather fond of the Rus.
 

HolisticGod

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Damo,

First of all, Spain's minting had absolutely nothing to do with Poland. I said before this started and I've said several times over the past couple weeks that I'm going to intentionally thrash the economy for RP (and historical and game balance) reasons.

Counting that as a mark of your achievements is inaccurate and silly. And grasping, even for you.

Secondly, yes, Spain and Austria were pretty well decimated by Poland and only won for numerical advantage (and, as you say, the bubble around Brandenburg-a policy I, quite vehemently, you'll remember, opposed).

However, you can't blame me for this-and, in fact, I deserve a little credit here. I hired mercenaries and raised only what troops I could in Imperial territories, keeping my cavalry foolishly low, and tried to fight from an Imperial perspective. I did not, for example, send a fleet to Danzig, thereby avoiding attrition in Austria and Bohemia and taking a high VP province, nor did I push the advantage into Poland before Austria did or act as I wanted. As I was following its "orders."

Pretty nicely RPed as far as I'm concerned. Was it fair? Of course not. It could only be fair if Poland and Austria were on completely equal terms with equal leaders and the right topography.

Was it unfair in an extra-game manner? No. I could've done far worse, but acted within sound limits.
 

TheArchduke

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Was the war a good idea? No way if you ask me. But as Poland:

1.) Annexed HRE states
2.) Betrayed the Emperor in the 2nd hungarian war
3.) Constantly threatened the Emperor and tried to blackmail him for buying him MA through Bra. As otherwise "Poland would take Hinterpommern from Brandenburg."

Additonally somehow I got the feeling that even in the woods a significant cav advantage seems to be the winner. Which I realized during the end of the war.

Apart from what Damo thinks the war was a win as he had to leave the HRE and I didn´t lost anything. For my part I will now expect constant fighting and dows of Poland over Silesia or something like that. I don´t care really. If Poland wants friendly relations now she can be my guest.


But imo the concept of playing somewhat nice or RP is completly lost to Damo. He doesn´t want to play in the spirit but tries to search for ways of going around the rules. I have no idea why he plays in Machiavelli for my part.
 

Damocles

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Originally posted by HolisticGod
Damo,
<snip>

Counting that as a mark of your achievements is inaccurate and silly. And grasping, even for you.

<snip>

Was it unfair in an extra-game manner? No. I could've done far worse, but acted within sound limits.

A) I merely looked at Spain's inflation before and after the war, and assumed it'd been used to liberally prop up Austria's economy and buy mercs. Which it was. It wasn't an accomplishment or an objective. Just a fact that the formidable Spanish economy was brought to bear, whether the money was wisely spent or crappily. And I don't think it is a good idea to intentionally ruin your economy either. Though, its not like the money is being burned. Its still being used for missionary work and colonizing and such. With Spain, 20-30% inflation won't make that much difference, since you get such ungodly amounts so far before anyone else anyways. Heck, Spain's land tech is already 14, when most people just got 12. (Portugal excluded)

B) If you'd attempted to go through Danzig, you would have been annihilated even worse and suffered absolutely horrendous attrition getting there. You also came from the provinces that were closest to the war. What else were you going to do, walk through France? I would have welcomed you trying to come through Danzig. Better then continually marching in those merc armies through Bohemia where they assisted Austria considerably in preventing me crossing the river and attacking Vienna/Steirmark again.

As to my opinion of Spain joining the war:

Austria declared war on for reasons of it's own pride, after breaking our earlier agreement, and thinking he could 'humble' me. After being decimated, you had to jump in there and bail him out, even though it didn't concern France at all which was the sole thing that Spain and Austria cooperated on. They didn't even cooperate against the Ottomans! The Turks actually had very warm relations with Spain and fought only one war against them where they fought constantly with Austria. And all this talk of Spain and Austria being as one is BS and one of the great urban myths of how these two countries always act in all RP games. I should've been able to gain Silesia in that war.
 
Last edited:

Damocles

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Originally posted by TheArchduke
Was the war a good idea? No way if you ask me. But as Poland:

1.) Annexed HRE states
2.) Betrayed the Emperor in the 2nd hungarian war
3.) Constantly threatened the Emperor and tried to blackmail him for buying him MA through Bra. As otherwise "Poland would take Hinterpommern from Brandenburg."

<snip>

But imo the concept of playing somewhat nice or RP is completly lost to Damo. He doesn´t want to play in the spirit but tries to search for ways of going around the rules. I have no idea why he plays in Machiavelli for my part.


1) I did annex Mecklemburg. But you also said that if I helped you in the war against the Ottoman Empire you would let me have those provinces. Then, after Hungary was saved, you turned on me and started to badger me about it anyways.

2) Only because you betrayed me, and Poland did in fact mobilize, but it was not quick enough to reach the front before the Turks managed to storm the forts.

3) Poland never tried to threaten Austria. It merely said that if the Emperor felt so strongly about defending Brandenburg, which had just taken Hinterpommern so as to cut my realm in half, making it extremely important for Poland to somehow find a way through...That Austria with its plentiful spanish gold could help Poland in buying military access again, which is damn fair and would have defused the situation nicely.


But NO. You got uppity and overconfident and had your ass kicked. Furthermore, you didn't accomplish ANYTHING.

I lost Mecklemburg to Denmark because I couldn't get to it. But I don't see Austria in any great hurry to make Denmark give up Mecklemburg. I didn't even see Austria care about Holstein getting annexed.

The ONLY reason I had Vorpommern which is a dirt poor province was so as to connect Poland with Mecklemburg. Being unallowed to take Hinterpommern (I was originally under the mistaken belief that Forzaa was accurate when he said I was still allowed to take Hinterpommern, just not a CB of Brandenburg's), there was NO point to keep it.

As for my future relations with Austria...

You'll reap what you have sown.

As for your last little comment...

That isn't even worthy of a response.
 

TheArchduke

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Originally posted by Damocles

Austria declared war on for reasons of it's own pride, after breaking our earlier agreement, and thinking he could 'humble' me.

This is what you think.
 

TheArchduke

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Well as I already said, I don´t expect anything else from you as raping me inside out or dividing me up with someone else.;) As this was your decision with annexing the HRE to deter our relations not mine. Without RP I couldn´t care less about Mecklenburg and Vorpommern you know. And you shouldn´t either. But no you went ahead and annexed Mecklenburg. To get anywhere near this I should annex Bavaria right away, seeing how Peter annexes the Khanates.:) I stay weak on purpose here whilst you go round and try to get your hands on anything you can.
 

TheArchduke

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Originally posted by Damocles
(Sorry Daniel A. Naughty word alert!)


Otherwise, why isn't Austria doing anything about Holstein and Mecklemburg being annexed? So I know that the whole defending the integrity of the HRE thing is bullshit.

Well, I see we won´t get anywhere. Maybe I am better off in other games.;)
 

Damocles

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Originally posted by TheArchduke
Well as I already said, I don´t expect anything else from you as raping me inside out or dividing me up with someone else.;) As this was your decision with annexing the HRE to deter our relations not mine. Without RP I couldn´t care less about Mecklenburg and Vorpommern you know. And you shouldn´t either. But no you went ahead and annexed Mecklenburg. To get anywhere near this I should annex Bavaria right away, seeing how Peter annexes the Khanates.:) I stay weak on purpose here whilst you go round and try to get your hands on anything you can.


Eh, I don't have a sugar daddy to bail me out. I'm surrounded by Swedes, Russians, Turks, Austrians and a magical barrier in the west. I was trying to form Greater Poland, which could have benefited from rich northern german manpower and taxation. It looks like it will go to Denmark now since Austria is only interested in stopping Polish encroachment. Apparently, the Danes are welcome to annex whom they please.
 

Damocles

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Originally posted by TheArchduke
Well, I see we won´t get anywhere. Maybe I am better off in other games.;)

You began with the personal attacks on me. Besides, thats your answer to EVERY dispute with every player in every game. Stick it out for once, you wimp ;)

I'm USED to you betraying me. It dosen't bother me. Yet now you're going all high and self-righteous on me OOCly. Talk about the crow calling the raven back.

Hell, Wyvern even told me to not go on a AI annexing spree, yet he dosen't seem to care about the slaughter that Ivan is wrecking in the east, so frankly, I'm only out for myself in this game. I intend to thrive and prosper.
 

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Originally posted by TheArchduke
Well, I see we won´t get anywhere. Maybe I am better off in other games.;)
Come on Duke! People are starting to think that this is your personality!
 

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Originally posted by Damocles
At this time, Denmark joined the fray and immediately besieged Mecklemburg and Vorpommern.
[/B]

Denmark was at the time of the Imperial dow allied with the Empire (as a loyal Elector ;) ) and honoured the alliance call. Denmark didn't join the actual fighting until WP was agreed with Sweden (which joined on Poland's side).
 

Peter Ebbesen

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Originally posted by mueller
Right.

Time to enter the second, slightly crazy, period of Ivan's rulership and change this title to Ivan "The Not So Terrible, But Admittedly Somewhat Violent, In A Polish Arse-Kicking Way". I mean half of Ukraine is bloody catholic already (yeah, I downloaded the save for the sake of curiosity)! Polotsk and Kremenchug are lost for Orthodoxy forever!
Ruthenians, Lithuanians, and Poles are worthless tax-dodgers. That is a known fact. Additionally, cordial relations exist between the Russian and Polish crown cemented with royal marriages and a trade agreement.

While it is true that the church is unhappy about the western situation, Ivan IV is not ruled by the church: Rather, he attempts to use it for his purposes. [As shall be revealed in the next AAR segment or two]

It is entirely true that it would have been trivial at that point to crush Poland for the time being, by sending in the Russian hordes, but there was very little incentive to do so: Relations were good and the Tsar was busy uniting ALL the Russians anyhow.

(And it was a pleasure to watch the war vicariously, in the few moments I could sneak away from my eastern wars :D)


Russian public opinion is also deeply concerned about a loss of Skaene to warmongering Swedes aka "the evil empire".
Indeed. That war was watched carefully. Denmark came so close to winning but was outmaneouvered on the field of battle. Sweden made Denmark waste forces attacking Swedish troops in the mountains of Norway: A good way to make Denmark piss away its manpower. Countersieging - or even assaulting - Southern Sweden would have been a better strategy.

As far as I see, Denmark has exactly one chance left to avoid becoming irrelevant in the North. Johann Rantzau fell in battle against the Swedes in this war, but rumour will it that a relative of his, Daniel Rantzau (3/4/5/1, 1662-1669) will arrive to lead the Danish army soon. [A seven year window of opportunity].


Acquisition of Azov is very welcome BTW - a very useful province imho even if muslim but iirc you've converted it already.
Converted. Inflation went up, up, up, but conversions went about as expected. Nearly halved stability costs from the 1,400d they topped at the middle of last session. (And that is a lot, considering Russia's stability cost reducing dp-settings and income!)




Hell, Wyvern even told me to not go on a AI annexing spree, yet he dosen't seem to care about the slaughter that Ivan is wrecking in the east, so frankly, I'm only out for myself in this game. I intend to thrive and prosper.
Boohooo!

Are you not pleased that, for once, a Russian player performs his historical conquests more or less on schedule in aggressive wars rather than waiting for cores or using his early years for stomping on Sweden or Poland?

When I get the "Claims on the Steppes" event at the start of next session, stating that Astrakhan was conquered by Ivan IV in 1557 so it should all be considered core Russian territory now, I will smile, for I will have been the proud owner since 1541 (Astrakhan province) or 1551 (all lands formerly owned by Astrakhan) :D

You are, of course, right that the GM treats rampant slaughter and annexation by Christians and of Christians in the heart of the HRE differently from rampant slaughter and annexation of Pagans and Infidels in the distant east that few people know or care about by the TRUE Christian Empire, and that is how it should be.
 
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Slargos

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Damocles has a point about danish expansion however. I have yet to hear a public denouncement from the Emperor. Interesting considering Christian II's declaration of faith, even. ;)
 

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Damo,

The entirety of that first post is dedicated to extolling your prowess. I assumed the inflation was part and parcel.

But let's look at the numbers again:

Take the first inflation figure. Consider that it was increasing before the war began to fund conversions, rapid colonization and a war chest against another duel with the OE, because, above all else, I want Spain's inflation to be high and might as well get shit done at the same time.

(not prohibitively high-as you point out, I can function with inflation in the thirties and forties and even, if necessary, fifties: but I'll be as weak as Spain was historically after the second bankruptcy)

But let's assume, anyway, that the six points came during the course of the war. Inflation from gold is currently .13 percent-I think the war lasted five years (correct me if I'm wrong-I was AFK and I don't pay much attention to those kinds of details, which is why my AAR is going to be largely apocryphal)-so subtract .65 percent rounded down. Five point five percent inflation caused by minting.

We'll use your figure again, 220 a month (rounded to 2600 yearly), because it jumped around depending on how the ungodly religious revolts in the Andes were doing, other similar factors. Taking 5.5 points would mean I minted, solely in monthly income to be absolutely fair, 14,300 ducats.

Take out of this my average operational costs for five and a half years, including maintenance, colonization, conversions, merchants, etc., reduced by annual income as usually used, and that number is roughly 12,000 ducats.

I sent (again, not into details-correct me if I'm wrong) about a hundred and twenty-thousand men into Austria. The Milanese and Burgundian guards totaled about fifty-thousand. My levy came to about twenty-five thousand. Forty-five thousand mercenaries hired at nine thousand men and three hundred ducats apiece (at a high, easy estimate) comes out to 1500 ducats. Taken all together, that's about 1900 ducats. This strikes me as rather more than I spent, but we'll go ahead with it.

I did send state gifts to Austria and Venice, the former being around 170 (I think, because once again...) and the latter around 100. I sent about 800 ducats worth, as I was MIA for a good chunk of the war.

2,700 hundred ducats. Rather a lot. Especially for Poland to tackle-but I'm not saying it was fair. Poland challenged the Emperor and got fucked by the Empire. Tough luck.

The question is what I did with the additional 9,100 ducats minted and why I wouldn't spend them in the desperate last stand against the Polish hordes:

"assumed it'd been used to liberally prop up Austria's economy and buy mercs. Which it was. It wasn't an accomplishment or an objective."

As far as I know, the Archduke did not spend any of his brother's money on appointing officials, sending its scant few merchants to market or building factories. As far as I know, it mostly raised mercenaries and whatever national armies it could manage, which brings up another interesting question:

"Just a fact that the formidable Spanish economy was brought to bear,"

If the formidable Spanish economy was brought to bear, why, beyond the question of the mysterious misappropriated 9,100 ducats, did it spend the vast majority of its money on expensive mercenaries? 2700 ducats is a lot to run up against, indeed, especially when 1500 is exchanged for 45,000 men with virtually no cavalry.

If, as you say, the mighty Habsburgs were out to get you, why wasn't this money better spent raising troops at home that could easily have sailed Mare Nostrum to Emilia, and from there to Milan?

Better still, why didn't Spain, perhaps with the 9,100 ducats set aside for the annihilation of Poland, continue to buy mercenaries, raise troops and trek across Austria to get the Archduke a little recompense?

Even better still, why did Spain bother with it at all? It's rich, powerful, otherwise occupied, itching for a crusade. Why take six points of inflation to protect Austria from, as you put it, her pride? Why appropriate 14,000 ducats from the vital pursuit of the mysterious Infra 5?

Best yet, why not leave Austria to siege back Bohemia and pour a good two or three hundred thousand men into Poland? Because I was afraid the Duke of Alba would be savaged and destroyed in Danzig? Or because the fair Catholic city (congrats on that, by the way, hadn't said so before), adding another COT in the friendly race I'm currently losing to Portugal, wouldn't appeal to the avarice and vanity of Charles V? The jewel of the North wouldn't be a fitting addition to his scattered and nearly ungovernable possessions? Or because someone could've/would've stopped me?

Allow me a little lack of humility.

I have a good-sized fleet in Spain no one but Portugal could challenge. I have ships that can easily be brought back from the colonies and a few more in Flandern. I can build transports (maybe with the missing 9,100 anti-Poland ducats!) with ease. So I ship an army to Holland, restock and ship it up to Danzig. Duke of Alba (assuming I'd waited to get him), large invasion, whilst the Habsburg Legions of Mayhem stream into Krakow and Wiel. Assault. Fleet docks temporarily in Copenhagen, heads back to Flandern, ships another Legion of Mayhem over, squeezes the life out of Poland. Who's going to intervene on your behalf against Austria and Spain?

Wyvern?

There are three things I'm trying to get accross here (with my admittedly hazy recollection):

A. While I don't want to stunt the growth of your titanic achievement (sure to persist unabated), Spain was largely peripheral to the war. I was careful to stay within the limits of a distant Emperor fortifying the frontiers of his realm. If you have a specific challenge to how far I went, we can discuss it, but there's no question at all that I could've gone much further.

B. Spain suffered not a whit for that war. The Empire was protected, the Emperor's prestige grew, the Protestants were given a bone. The missing 9,100 ducats? Most of them were raised periodically over a larger stretch of time and went to such projects as the Total Destruction/Salvation of the Savages and the relentless war against the Cuzco heretics (who, I will admit, fielded more against Spain then Poland-but, then, they accomplished more as well). Moreover, while that period included a six point increase, the remainder of the session included eight. I don't think there's room to take credit for any ill winds in Madrid.

C. Duke played it right, for no in-game gain (which he could've gotten, if he'd pressed on). How well did he fight? Dunno. I wasn't there for most of it, I don't have the starting numbers, I opposed attacking Poland in the middle of winter and was more concerned about picking up Gary and finding out whether I could put the blade to the Pagan beasts everywhere and I had no idea what he was doing after my troops got there. I just went where he went and asked no questions. I assume he had a plan, and it resulted in the sum total of what he wanted in the first place. Call him names, insult his abilities, build great monuments throughout Krakow to your stunning, unprecedented military mind. I don't give a shit and neither should he. He won, and that's all that counts.
 
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Originally posted by Tzar Peter the Great
What Polish policy? :confused:

<snip> Ivan the "The Not So Terrible, But Admittedly Somewhat Violent, In A Kind And Caring Way" <snip>


Pardon me, but I see reason enough for Ivan to call himself the "Slaughter of Astrakhan, the opressor of Crimea, the slayer of Sibir, the tormentor of Azow and the humilator of Persia"
or simplified: "the Terrible" :D
 

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Damo,

I should also say, though, that I understand your situation and I understand that you did very well given the circumstances. This back and forth is irritating as all hell (I appreciate an AAR turn of pen, of course :D) and got me trying my hand at semi-creative math, which always leaves me with that own goal sensation on the back of my neck.

But I don't appreciate your going after Duke, particularly when all he was doing was playing to the spirit of the game. Nor do I appreciate mischaracterizations of Spain, for the same reason.

On the other hand, I agreed with your take on Brandenburg and still do. I agree that Poland deserves as much oppurtunity to expand as France or Spain or Austria (it should, of course, be prepared for things like this, as well). I even agree, in a purely OOC fashion, that the Emperor might try a harder hand with the Protestants, but it's hard to argue that case when Poland is allied to Sweden.

Gary made a ruling, we both opposed it. Gary continues to feel it was the right call, we both continue to feel it wasn't. That isn't likely to change, and bitching about it, and the other consequences of your expansion, isn't like to help.

I'm sympathetic, but I think I, and everyone else, would be more willing to work something out and consider your predicament if you suppressed the urge to speak for the persecuted.

Or let things go, now and then.
 
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