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Originally posted by Smirfy
And the practicalities of such action are ?
The Dutch prospered greatly by seizing Portugal's colonies, RL. And in a limited colonial war, they would have the advantage in leaders and manpower.
If PJL is going to surrender Sweden then I think it would be reasonable for Denmark to inherit Sweden to protect their brothers. PJL's choice and Peter will no doubt also have something to say about it.
All edits and such will have to be done tomorrow evening. I've been too busy with other stuff to spend any time on machiavelli and such like this weekend.
Greater Denmark?
The current attitude in the Imperial Court is that Sweden must be destroyed, root and branch, for breaking the Treaty of Finland and warring against Mother Russia, and that given Denmark's actions in warring against Russia on behalf of the Swedes in the past a de facto surrender by the Swedish nation to Denmark will impact this very little.
And yet, relations with the Danish crown have in days past been good, and it is possible that the Danish kings have felt forced to support Sweden in her attacks on Mother Russia out of necessity, not out of hatred.
In these enlightened times, an alternative to dire warfare might just exist, and in her immense grace and kindness, the Tsarina is willing to put an end to hostilities with the Swedes, accept the creation of Greater Denmark, and - in the spirit of foregiveness - lay aside her vow to level Stockholm to the ground and exile the entire population to Siberia. Her demands are few, namely that the following provinces be ceded to Russia as part of the transformation, in order that a more aesthetically pleasing border can be formed in the North, and to put a final end to the damn pirates of Gotland, who have interfered with Russian shipping for two centuries:
If the Danish king accepts this reasonable offer of reconciliation, and the Swedish king is intent on carrying through the unification, LET IT BE SO: PEACE WILL REIGN IN THE NORTH.
If the Danish King does NOT accept this offer of reconciliation and carries through the unification anyhow, the Tsarina of Russia will reaffirm her eternal enmity against the people of Sweden. [As a player, I will demand that a permanent CB on Denmark be given to Russia in this case.]
If the Swedes are going to give up their independence to be annexed by Denmark, the Tsarina Elizaveta I is certainly going to have something to say.
The current attitude in the Imperial Court is that Sweden must be destroyed, root and branch, for breaking the Treaty of Finland and warring against Mother Russia, and that given Denmark's actions in warring against Russia on behalf of the Swedes in the past a de facto surrender by the Swedish nation to Denmark will impact this very little.
And yet, relations with the Danish crown have in days past been good, and it is possible that the Danish kings have felt forced to support Sweden in her attacks on Mother Russia out of necessity, not out of hatred.
In these enlightened times, an alternative to dire warfare might just exist, and in her immense grace and kindness, the Tsarina is willing to put an end to hostilities with the Swedes, accept the creation of Greater Denmark, and - in the spirit of foregiveness - lay aside her vow to level Stockholm to the ground and exile the entire population to Siberia. Her demands are few, namely that the following provinces be ceded to Russia as part of the transformation, in order that a more aesthetically pleasing border can be formed in the North, and to put a final end to the damn pirates of Gotland, who have interfered with Russian shipping for two centuries:
- Finnmark
- Narvik
- Jämtland
- The island of Gotland
Greater Denmark And Russia - Living In Peace
If the Danish king accepts this reasonable offer of reconciliation, and the Swedish king is intent on carrying through the unification, LET IT BE SO: PEACE WILL REIGN IN THE NORTH.
If the Danish King does NOT accept this offer of reconciliation and carries through the unification anyhow, the Tsarina of Russia will reaffirm her eternal enmity against the people of Sweden. [As a player, I will demand that a permanent CB on Denmark be given to Russia in this case.]
This could all be academic anyhow as it's up to pjl and aldo, but one thing's for sure there'll be no permanent Russian CB on Denmark .
.
Then there will be a temporary one of several years' duration. Russia got a temporary CB in 1743 when Sweden accepted the Danish crown prince. If Sweden goes this enormous step further without Denmark reaching an agreement with Russia, surely an equivalent CB though of longer duration is absolutely justified.Originally posted by Wyvern
This could all be academic anyhow as it's up to pjl and aldo, but one thing's for sure there'll be no permanent Russian CB on Denmark
The manpower differental is not great and the leaders though potent are transient so although these are advantages they do not reflect the main and most desicive advantage the Dutch and later the English enjoyed.
Yeah, especially when you take the numerous wars between them into account. It would be surely justified. But it also means that Denmark almost has no choice
Sure it has. Denmark can choose between giving up its 4 poorest provinces (of which two are mere colonies) of its own free will for peace in the North and an aesthetically pleasing border (for Russia), or choose to defend it all, in which case I will do my level best to conquer - in separate wars without alliance help (this is personal) - to conquer the much wealthier provinces of Bergslagen, Svealand, and basically all of Scandinavia I can reach by marching, richest provinces first. I might fail in this endeavour. It will certainly be difficult to march to Copenhagen to force the issue.Originally posted by FAL
Yeah, especially when you take the numerous wars between them into account. It would be surely justified. But it also means that Denmark almost has no choice
Italy would like to thank Russia for their efforts to bring peace to the North and endorse the settlement.
Portugal wishes peace and prosperity throughout the Europe. Naturally, we are particularly fond of peninsula so we DO wish peace in Scandinavia achieved through negotiation, like the one on Iberia is achieved.
But, and that is a large BUT!, Russia must always bare in mind that there is one more peninsula, the Appenine one, where peace is even more in danger than on Scandinavia!
We prey for the peace there before anything else!
so we DO wish peace in Scandinavia achieved through negotiation, like the one on Iberia is achieved.But, and that is a large BUT!, Russia must always bare in mind that there is one more peninsula, the Appenine one, where peace is even more in danger than on Scandinavia!
We prey for the peace there before anything else!
Pray tell me you mean pray, not prey, as prey gives your statement a rather sinister twist. :rofl:
While indeed "pray" was the initial intention, "prey" is in fact goos to describe what we tried to do: bring peace (at least partly) there, with naturally some prey for us too
. Ask Italy for detailes I tried to start this discussion about Sweden's future a few say ago but I got no response then. But now while I have been away the debate has started for sure. What Sweden will do is a matter for Gary and PJL to decide given the current situation (Sweden being a Danish vassal and having a Danish Prince elected King).
If Sweden does agree to join Denmark as we do hope negotiations will naturally be welcomed with Russia. But it should be kept in mind that it is neither the Danish Crown or the current Danish vassal Crown of Sweden that has been hostile towards Russia. Denmark has been in two wars against Russia since 1520 of which Russia both times was the attacker. Nevertheless, Danish-Russian relations has on the whole been good over the years and Russia should be as glad as Denmark over the fact that the old Swedish rule (Wasa and others) is no more. Blaming the poor Swedish people for the misdoings in the past should give little joy. Let us instead agree over a new peaceful order in the North!
If Sweden does agree to join Denmark as we do hope negotiations will naturally be welcomed with Russia. But it should be kept in mind that it is neither the Danish Crown or the current Danish vassal Crown of Sweden that has been hostile towards Russia. Denmark has been in two wars against Russia since 1520 of which Russia both times was the attacker. Nevertheless, Danish-Russian relations has on the whole been good over the years and Russia should be as glad as Denmark over the fact that the old Swedish rule (Wasa and others) is no more. Blaming the poor Swedish people for the misdoings in the past should give little joy. Let us instead agree over a new peaceful order in the North!
Such a border has been proposed. Take it or leave it.
The Swedish people, having supported their mad rulers in their pretensions to power are, indeed, to be blamed for many of the woes of Russia.
It is scarce 20 years ago since the Swedish monarch, with the enthusiastic approval of his people, broke the sacred Truce of Finland and invaded Mother Russia, and the Danish Crown would hold the Swedish Crown innocent of wrongdoing!?
So Austria would hold Poland responsible for the historical wrongdoings of Brandenburg? And OE is the target if you want to clear you record with Byzantium?
The current Crown has little to do with the Crown 20 years ago. Well it rules the same (but smaller) country.
The new crown has a totally new agenda (read previous post).PE proposal is most reasonable for a normal non RPG game but not for Mach II. It is no doubt a great deal for Denmark but I find it hard to justify really. Denmark must give away 3 provinces plus parts of Sweden (Gotland) in order to be "allowed" to inherit Sweden. Consider that Denmark will as it looks get away with a much better deal if dowing Sweden and taking 3 provinces.
In any other game than Machiavelli 2, I would be demanding some of the wealthy Swedish provinces like Bergslagen, Svealand, or Skåne rather than the four poorest provinces possible :rofl:
And if Denmark would prefer to fight Sweden in a partitioning of Sweden competition with Russia (who gets most first?) rather than inherit it without a fight, that is quite fine with me.