Machiavelli II: The Rebirth

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Originally posted by Damocles
Seeing Barnius' economy graphs have become almost as fun as Slargos' hosting. I can't wait to see them.

BTW,

Its interesting how during a war, most people's economy goes down, while mine goes up. I think its because I keep sending merchants and pillaging, while most people stay on the defensive and forget everything else.

I was very busy last few days, just returned from a business trip, so graphs will have to wait till tomorrow. But I am glad you find them interesting .

BTW,

Portugal can perhaps lose a war because of sending merchants and colonists, building infrastructure and exploring seas, but that's not a reason to stop doing all that:wacko:

 

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Denmark went naval in order to get random explorers (which we did, 3 more exactly). High MP has never been a goal for Denmark, even though it certainly would have been handy at times.

And Sam, it's good that some of us know that the Tivoli Guards should be reckoned with (currently have +16 WS against French alliance). We should also announce that the whole Tivoli was in a great extent financed by the PTC (not as much as Venice and Austria but then again we have lower MP to use the cash on). Support limit is btw 51 or so and the troublesome thing is to recruit really (connected to the above mentioned naval choice in some extent).

 

[Damocles]

It dosen't help Austria that PE died 30 years early. That might have scared away the French and Turks

 

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Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
With all due respects, Aldo, your miserably low army support limit would appear to be a conscious choice on your side to stay weak. You have so few manufactories, that just four years of coining money would buy you four weapons manufactories and increase your support limit by 50% from ~40 to ~60 (and significantly increase your overall income as well)

Well, Portugal has different problem: support limit is not so low, but with our manpower and number of wars we conduct and rebellions we have to settle after wars, with our manpower we simply can't raise our armies even to support limit. Unless hireing mercenaries in PEACE TIME, which we couldn't force the Chairman of PTC to pay .

And with this said I again use the opportunity to say shame on huge eastern powers that are playing peaceful economists for centuries now.

 

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Originally posted by Wyvern
Hi Peter,

Yep the Austrian cores are for the Spanish succession, I just figured we basically had that under the current situation in game and the Spanish event will fire soon anyway. We can wait another session though, it's possible after all that Spain might choose differently than currently would seem to be the case .

If only Spain WOULD do that. All sorts of war reparations for Portuguese war against that kind of Spain would be oppened than.

 

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Originally posted by Damocles
Spain agreed to reveal all of it's american cots to Poland to let them trade in (since only Poland valiantly stood beside France and Spain when the rest of the world jumped them). And in 1700, he will fully trade maps with me. (Great, now I gott bring my capital to mighty.) He also promised 4000 ducats, but I think I'll get that in game, if he dosen't have it in his treasurey. I had you confirm all of this as well.

What did Poland DO for THAAAAAAAT??!!

Portugal got two low value islands for help in reconquisa of Spanish Caribbean from England and conquest of Dutch Argentina. Portugal delivered 4/6 Caribbean islands to Spain. And seriously weakened England and Holland. After Spain again disregarded Portuguese oppinion and formed an alliance with France, Portugal was reluctant to help in the rest of Spanish wishes. Spain than demanded BOTH islands back, although Portugal did a considerable part of a deal. Perhaps Spain expected Portugal to help till EVERY LAST province Spain dreamt about is in her hands? Who knows. But Poland should be very careful...

 

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Originally posted by Wyvern
Yes it would get confusing. If all the coalition wanted to force a general peace in a situation like that, then by definition the 3 prov rule would come into play. As it was though both Austria and Venice were only intent on using the general situation for personal gain and clearly not out to really help the Netherlands .

But perhaps they will pledge their support in a case of a need to return some provinces a coalition will lose?

 

[Slargos]

Originally posted by Barnius
Perhaps Spain expected Portugal to help till EVERY LAST province Spain dreamt about is in her hands? Who knows. But Poland should be very careful...

Oh. Did Spain expect Portugal to fullfill the ENTIRE deal? Not just the part of the deal Portugal cared to fullfill? The horror. Such unsporting expectations are not fair!

Originally posted by Barnius
If only Spain WOULD do that. All sorts of war reparations for Portuguese war against that kind of Spain would be oppened than.

Would you be willing to pay all these reparations in advance then, as a show of good faith? :rofl:

 

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Originally posted by Slargos

Portugal: Joined England/Holland and managed to tie up the majority of the spanish army with the help of venetian/english/danish relief armies. Thus when we win, I will have no way of forcing him to give back the 2 provinces concerned in the deal we made a couple of sessions back which he subsequently broke.

Seeing how much Poland got from Spain for giving her NOTHING makes PTC accountants to recalculate all this you are talking about.

Portugal enabled Spain to retake 4 Caribbean islands from England and sinked half of English and Dutch navy in that war. For that we would like you to add Sicily to Baleares and Canary islands you already gave to us

And sure, you can TAKE any Portuguese province. But we will not GIVE what's rightfully ours. Unless we AGREE on that.

For TAKING something, naturally, you have to control is. And I am much more ready to give you Algrave than islands you mentioned. One day I stay only with Tago on Iberian peninsula I will ask my capital to be moved to Azores and I will finally be completely free

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Barnius
What did Poland DO for THAAAAAAAT??!!

Portugal got two low value islands for help in reconquisa of Spanish Caribbean from England and conquest of Dutch Argentina. Portugal delivered 4/6 Caribbean islands to Spain. And seriously weakened England and Holland. After Spain again disregarded Portuguese oppinion and formed an alliance with France, Portugal was reluctant to help in the rest of Spanish wishes. Spain than demanded BOTH islands back, although Portugal did a considerable part of a deal. Perhaps Spain expected Portugal to help till EVERY LAST province Spain dreamt about is in her hands? Who knows. But Poland should be very careful...

I was a loyal friend of friend of Spain! Not a fairweather ally.

 

[Damocles]

From Rob's AAR-

At the Start of 1670 Austria was at war with Poland…

We do not talk about the Polish debacle.

That gave me a chuckle.

 

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Originally posted by Slargos
Yes, but the whole point is Barnius JOINED your alliance in order to avoid this. Pretty gamey move and in the end I think this is an exploit of the rules.

I NEVER thought about this.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Barnius
I NEVER thought about this.

See? I've defended Barnius' motives all along. So there should be no bother about considering it a separate war.

 

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Originally posted by Damocles
Maybe Portugal can be treated as a separate war.

Well, POrtuguese main goal in this war was to help Holland. We didn't ask anything for us and we are not asking anything. That's why I joined their alliance.

I could have DOWed Spain myself, because i had CB. But than I suppose I would play a bit differently than a completely defensive war this was up to now. My goal was to help Holland and I did it by tying Spanish forces to Portugal. I NEVER wanted any more territory from Spain, although it WAS suggested to me that it would be relativelly easy. Spain was COMPLETELY empty and many minimal forts. And when Peter mentioned it publicaly later during the war, it was not the first time he did it . First time was long before Portugal joined the war.

Because of all this it made sense Portugal to join the alliance. I also wanted to join them anyway, since the plan is relations with England to be good (event in 1703).

But if you insist in looking at this war as a sepparate...what can I do?

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Barnius


But if you insist in looking at this war as a sepparate...what can I do?

Well. I'm getting mixed signals.

Follow your heart, I guess.

 

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Originally posted by Damocles
I don't see what needs to be judged. Portugal joining the alliance constituted a clear declaration of war on Spain of it's own volition, and should be treated seperately.

If that were his motives. Though, I doubt Barnius would make such a coldhearted decision. I am sure he agrees fully, because he only joined for the righteousness of his cause, the consequences be buggered.

That's in fact true The 3 province rule NEVER crossed my mind when I joined the Coalition. What I did thought about is better to be in the alliance war because it was easier to help directly this way (influence on war score).

However, I do see your point. So, yes, we can somehow make this two wars. With some agreements. Like France and Portugal don't fight. We didn't till now anyway.
And Spain will naturally get something only if she controls it. And that will require her to send her navy to land troops on Baleares and Canary islands :rofl:

 

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Originally posted by Lord_Robertus
Oh dear... I am going to be buggered next round.

Lets see who I have annoyed

France
Spain
Poland
The Ottoman Empire
Holland
England
Portugal
Denmark
Russia
Venice (Possibly)

Erm... IS there anyone else left to annoy?

Well...

Perhaps the situation is not THAT bad Austria did manage to take 2 provinces from France. 3 would be better. And Austria is out of the war for some time.
If Austria can promise she will keep supporting week coulntries geathered in the Coalition, Portugal is ready to keep funding Austria.

Portugal is also ready to fight a few more years. Which will enable Austria to enter the scene again

 

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Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Coming centuries will refer to it as the "1st Partitioning of Austria". With Poles seizing Bohemia, France reclaiming the Rhine, Venice occupying central Austria, and the Ottomans biting off chumps of Hungary - all in separate wars, it will truly be the opportunity of a lifetime for Leopold I to show his true strength.

Russia could and should influece at least two of the mentioned countries .

 

[Slargos]

Originally posted by Barnius
However, I do see your point. So, yes, we can somehow make this two wars. With some agreements. Like France and Portugal don't fight. We didn't till now anyway.
And Spain will naturally get something only if she controls it. And that will require her to send her navy to land troops on Baleares and Canary islands :rofl:

Of course, mainland Portugal aswell as Brazil is well within my reach.

As they say, "If you can't beat Barnius senseless, or retake what he rightfully owes you, you can always take it out on Brazil"

It *should* be a saying, at any rate. I think it is a good one.

 

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Originally posted by Slargos
Oh. Did Spain expect Portugal to fullfill the ENTIRE deal? Not just the part of the deal Portugal cared to fullfill? The horror. Such unsporting expectations are not fair!

We are both right in this issue. You said it's "all or nothing" and demanded both islands back. I said you can't possible demand so MANY wars untill ALL Caribbean and Argentina is Spanish. And I suggested to return you ONE island. Which you reffused.

Originally posted by Slargos
Would you be willing to pay all these reparations in advance then, as a show of good faith? :rofl:

No, just part of it in advance I am affraid.