Machiavelli : Europe Arising

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Originally posted by BiB
The game hasn't went liek actual history for Venice anyway, so what? I guess we shoudl just have left him to be eaten by the Turk, that would have pleased u a lot more, I'm xure We bought a vassal for some land and it clearly doesn't suit u but that doesn't mean tehre is anything wrong with it.

What bothers me is another example of too close cooperation between Spain and Austria. Venice is Austrian ally, so why didn't Austria offer Venice her Italian posessions to bribe her? Instead Spain gave away her land - how RPG and historic that is?

 

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Originally posted by BiB
If I could only have one rule I would make it "no map trading". It is the single most devatasting action for maintaining at least a sense of historical accuracy.

No map trading at all? But maps are Dutch most valuable posession! How will we get the money if not by selling maps????

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
What bothers me is another example of too close cooperation between Spain and Austria. Venice is Austrian ally, so why didn't Austria offer Venice her Italian posessions to bribe her? Instead Spain gave away her land - how RPG and historic that is?

Just doing what is in the best interest of my country. France and the Ottomans are my enemies who have attacked me before. Austria not. So u bet I will try and keep 'em my friends. This time bey getting them Venice as vassal. It's only natural to try and make friends and oppose enemies. By at the same time helping Venice I am strengthening another enemy of an enemy of mine and making them my friend. All in my best interest, esp at the what I consider to be lowly cost of 2 crappy islands. When France or the OE go out to help the Dutch it is also only in their best interest, aka to weaken their enemy, not because they like ur face. That's the way things go

 

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Originally posted by BiB
And still I will achieve 50% inflation.

Come 1680 in teh game all this talk about Spain will be long forgotten and we'll be having this same conversation about France.

I'm not overly bothered by it

That is quite possible. But your inflation will be just about 50 %, not more. Not arround 100% as we often saw it - and that before Spain started apointing governors!

Spain will still be a superpower for the whole game, while it will be a mirracle if The Netherlands ever becomes remotely as important as it was historically. Not with this starting position and with me ruling it

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
No map trading at all? But maps are Dutch most valuable posession! How will we get the money if not by selling maps????

Unless u get like 10K for them those maps are worth more to the Dutch the fewer people know about them.

Anyway, I told u this quite a while ago already

Anotehr funny historical fact is that the Dutch attempted to reach India thru a north east passage while in this game they get shitloads of explorers and have like nothing left to explore. Just another example of how the map swapping system (from revolters and capital taking) in its various guises is just a tad messed up It also shows that the iberian nations were quite untouchable when it came to colonial matters. The Dutch were teh first to actually oppose them directly and that was near the year 1600 (note that people who say teh Caribbean should be a hotbed of competetion from 1500 on ) and they were very careful about it and didn't exactly trust its success as they were looking for the likes of north east passages.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
That is quite possible. But your inflation will be just about 50 %, not more. Not arround 100% as we often saw it - and that before Spain started apointing governors!

Spain will still be a superpower for the whole game, while it will be a mirracle if The Netherlands ever becomes remotely as important as it was historically. Not with this starting position and with me ruling it

Yea, it was fixed because 100% was insanely off the mark Since appointing governors my inflation has risen about 5% Unless I get really lucky with exceptional years I will have 50% nflation in 1621 while everyone else will be nicely under 20.

I'll eat my hat if I am a superpower come 1820 Just the lack of leaders alone is enough to not deserve that status. And that lack of leaders starts in earnest from 1650 when other nations get 5-5-5 ones. I'd like to see me win lots of wars still then

Just because Spain is strong at the time it should be strong doesn't mean it'll not decline.

The Dutch will get the best leaders, monarchs and events of the 17th century. Add great maps and tech (which u will soon lead as the Dutch wirtschaftswunder) and u have a great base to work from.

 

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Originally posted by BiB
I think I halved inflation. Anyway BRA/PRU gets so many good evenst that even without doing any urself u will end up very centralised

Brandenburg get's ONE centralizing event, in the C choice. And with an attractive B choice it's certainy not a no-brainer. And even IF I through some miracle end up as Prussia (what with Prussia beeing catholic and a Polish vassal since forever as well as the "no gamey play" rules) Those events around 1750 hardly help me at all. By then most of the game is over anyway. Do you think it's realistic for Brandenburg to have the same degree of organization as the Dakota (oh, how I wish I had the other dp positions of the dDakota ) until then?

Well, even with perfect dp sliders right now and zero inflation I have no chance of achieving what Prussia did historically land-tech wise, i. e. having enough lead by mid-18th century to survive a war with Austria, France, Russia, Sweden, Saxony and the HRE for 5 years and then getting a white peace after Russia dropps out, and that with just owning 8 poor provinces and no trade woth speaking of. With some (mainly financial) help by England during the war, of course.

And did you suddenly decide to double the size of this thread ?

 

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Ive been away for 4 hours and you have spammed about 6 pages of text!
You people are unbelieveable!

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Damocles
lol. Austria and Spain dowed me in 1520 over Hungary. You guys BEGAN the first big war. France only jumped in at the time out of it's own volition because of Naples.

Hmm. I could have sworn that Austria was in alliance with Hungary and merely attempted to defend her from the Turk.

 

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Barnius
No map trading at all? But maps are Dutch most valuable posession! How will we get the money if not by selling maps????

Indeed, England would probably like to buy Dutch maps, and I don't think that would be gamey, do others disagree?

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Damocles
I AGREE.

Austria agreed to let me take Dalmatia, Corfu, Cyprus and Crete off Venice without resisting. I was just giving him the maps as an offering of thanks and understanding between us. Too bad I forgot about his 'forget favors' everytime a new monarch shows up.

That was Maximillian II, who hated Venice with a passion - and took his revenge on Venice and Genoa even though I (as a player) fully expected it to touch off a larger war I could ill afford.

Now, Emperor Rudolf II, has a different agenda. Though obviously preferring good relations with the Turk to bad ones, still more does he desire to strengthen Italian unity. When Venice offered to become an Austro-Italian vassal for protection from the rampaging Turk, he jumped at the offer [and started sending state gifts to bring the relations high enough to vassalise ] This may entirely well be to the detriment of Austria-Italia long term, given the prodigous memory of the Ottoman sultans, but so what?

FWIW:
1) My monarchs do not forget favours done to the realm in the past, but they are less affected by them than if they were favours done to the monarch himself. Additionally, long term positive relations are remembered stronger than short term.

2) Boy, did I get more than I wanted when I accepted your maps. I was hoping for maps of North Africa and Persia and Arabia (it was so infuriating just to know that the OE was fighting 'in the east' without map knowledge), and got maps of much of Asia, the Caribbean, and the North American seaboard. I will not be sorry to see much of that knowledge gone. It was a constant temptation to send traders to the Eastern CoT, and though it gave a virtous feeling to keep sending my merchants to the highly competitive and minimally profitable European CoTs in the face of temptation, I also felt incredibly stupid doing so

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Indeed, England would probably like to buy Dutch maps, and I don't think that would be gamey, do others disagree?

I think it would be a bit gamey unless, Netherlands was to start from scrap.

As it is now everyone could get his hands on Spains maps, and allthough I'm very much against Spain I think that it would be unfair.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Barnius
What bothers me is another example of too close cooperation between Spain and Austria. Venice is Austrian ally, so why didn't Austria offer Venice her Italian posessions to bribe her? Instead Spain gave away her land - how RPG and historic that is?

What have you been smoking?

Austria is part of the kingdom of Austria-Italia. Giving away Italian land is completely out of the question. The vassalship and alliance was all one deal, "Austria-Italia will protect Venice given that Venice recognize Austria-Italia as the dominant Italian power". Never, ever, would Austria-Italia give away heartland provinces to buy a vassal.

BiBs tomfoolery with Italian islands is something that happened after the vassalship, and, as I have already pointed out, if Spain is divesting itself of some of its Italian holdings, it ought to be selling them to the rightful kingdom of Austria-Italia, rather than giving them to the Republic of Venice.

I am really interested in seing how on earth BiB will justify it in the AAR.... If he does not do a very good job, he will have managed to put a not negligible strain on the Spanish - Austro-Italian relationship.

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
What have you been smoking?

Austria is part of the kingdom of Austria-Italia. Giving away Italian land is completely out of the question. The vassalship and alliance was all one deal, "Austria-Italia will protect Venice given that Venice recognize Austria-Italia as the dominant Italian power". Never, ever, would Austria-Italia give away heartland provinces to buy a vassal.

BiBs tomfoolery with Italian islands is something that happened after the vassalship, and, as I have already pointed out, if Spain is divesting itself of some of its Italian holdings, it ought to be selling them to the rightful kingdom of Austria-Italia, rather than giving them to the Republic of Venice.

I am really interested in seing how on earth BiB will justify it in the AAR.... If he does not do a very good job, he will have managed to put a not negligible strain on the Spanish - Austro-Italian relationship.

I bet I'm not the only hoping that it will put a strain on your relations...

 

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Originally posted by BiB
Yea, it was fixed because 100% was insanely off the mark Since appointing governors my inflation has risen about 5% Unless I get really lucky with exceptional years I will have 50% nflation in 1621 while everyone else will be nicely under 20.

I'll eat my hat if I am a superpower come 1820 Just the lack of leaders alone is enough to not deserve that status. And that lack of leaders starts in earnest from 1650 when other nations get 5-5-5 ones. I'd like to see me win lots of wars still then

Just because Spain is strong at the time it should be strong doesn't mean it'll not decline.

The Dutch will get the best leaders, monarchs and events of the 17th century. Add great maps and tech (which u will soon lead as the Dutch wirtschaftswunder) and u have a great base to work from.

Yes, leaders are nice, but try to use them when you have like manpower=6 k and land support limit=30 k, which I will have when Spain is finnished with Dutch

 

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Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
What have you been smoking?

Austria is part of the kingdom of Austria-Italia. Giving away Italian land is completely out of the question. The vassalship and alliance was all one deal, "Austria-Italia will protect Venice given that Venice recognize Austria-Italia as the dominant Italian power". Never, ever, would Austria-Italia give away heartland provinces to buy a vassal.

BiBs tomfoolery with Italian islands is something that happened after the vassalship, and, as I have already pointed out, if Spain is divesting itself of some of its Italian holdings, it ought to be selling them to the rightful kingdom of Austria-Italia, rather than giving them to the Republic of Venice.

I am really interested in seing how on earth BiB will justify it in the AAR.... If he does not do a very good job, he will have managed to put a not negligible strain on the Spanish - Austro-Italian relationship.

Well, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. In fact it'e even more . My intention was, naturally, to point out how sneaky those Spaniards are

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Oh, and regarding Austo-Italian innovativeness, gameyness of: Since 1492, I have spent a grand total of one dp-click going innovative.

Starting at 6 INN, +1 dp-click, +1 Uncooperative Philosopher (set free), +1 Hofkanzlei, Hofkammer and Hofrat (Create functions, option a), +1 Religious Peace of Augsburg (Princes choose religion, option a) I am thus at 10, rather than the 8 I would have been at if Austria were only affected by historical events. To my mind, that is not a major departure for an Austria that saddles itself with innovative Italians rather than backwards Balkans.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Brandenburg get's ONE centralizing event, in the C choice. And with an attractive B choice it's certainy not a no-brainer. And even IF I through some miracle end up as Prussia (what with Prussia beeing catholic and a Polish vassal since forever as well as the "no gamey play" rules) Those events around 1750 hardly help me at all. By then most of the game is over anyway. Do you think it's realistic for Brandenburg to have the same degree of organization as the Dakota (oh, how I wish I had the other dp positions of the dDakota ) until then?

Well, even with perfect dp sliders right now and zero inflation I have no chance of achieving what Prussia did historically land-tech wise, i. e. having enough lead by mid-18th century to survive a war with Austria, France, Russia, Sweden, Saxony and the HRE for 5 years and then getting a white peace after Russia dropps out, and that with just owning 8 poor provinces and no trade woth speaking of. With some (mainly financial) help by England during the war, of course.

And did you suddenly decide to double the size of this thread ?

Hey, the ones u get as Prussia count too. Also othr events take care of quite a few other dp sliders enabling u to invest a lot more in centralisation moving urself. U alerady got BRA a few decades sooner than planned so u can't really complain dp wise

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Indeed, England would probably like to buy Dutch maps, and I don't think that would be gamey, do others disagree?

I tend to think so, yes. Though as I said earlier I can see nations trading maps as long term allies with about as much each to share, I figured I'd just get rid of the grey area and disallow it all together as it caused more trouble than anything. Things liek this just didn't happen and have way more effect on the game than they should, in a negative sense.

(Nevermind the fact the Dutch shouldn't even have maps of Spanish America in the first place. They get all those explorers because historically they did in fact have to explore lots of things and didn't get maps of all the world from teh Spanish. I think the Dutch just getting all the Spanish maps and trading them around all of Europe is just a tad overdoing it )

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
What have you been smoking?

Austria is part of the kingdom of Austria-Italia. Giving away Italian land is completely out of the question. The vassalship and alliance was all one deal, "Austria-Italia will protect Venice given that Venice recognize Austria-Italia as the dominant Italian power". Never, ever, would Austria-Italia give away heartland provinces to buy a vassal.

BiBs tomfoolery with Italian islands is something that happened after the vassalship, and, as I have already pointed out, if Spain is divesting itself of some of its Italian holdings, it ought to be selling them to the rightful kingdom of Austria-Italia, rather than giving them to the Republic of Venice.

I am really interested in seing how on earth BiB will justify it in the AAR.... If he does not do a very good job, he will have managed to put a not negligible strain on the Spanish - Austro-Italian relationship.

Venice was not going to be ur vassal without those islands so I bought u a vassal with some of my islands