Machiavelli : Europe Arising

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Calm down, the Habsburgs didn't even get their historical part of Hungary back. France and the OE just massively underestimated them and paid the price, with proper preparations the result would have been very different.

So I already sound genuine? GOOOOOD

BTW, can you give me your ICQ number?

 

[BiB]

I see William of Orange has started "la leyenda negra"

 

[Smirfy]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Barnius, very simple summary of how the Habsburgs won:

1. France had about 100k troops when they dowed, but Spain and Austria each had 100k troops, too.
2. France failed to send siege forces to every single lowland province and just keep them there. They would move in, siege a bit with armies often bigger than necessary for the province, move the troops out to help on the southen front and repeat.
3. The Ottomans started the war with few enough troops on the front for austria to stall them long enough to force france out of the war with stab hits.

I don't think we can conclude that the Habsburgs are actually stronger than France and the OE combined.

It was France and Venice's decision to go to war they initiated it, and it is strange that France in particular made no preperations for war (portulgals army was in proportion bigger and I was contemplating no war). Secondly with Frances slider positions suiting a lightnening war rather than the long haul considering the lack of preperations, made the decision of going to war even stranger. France even managed to sent two colonists to India during the war whilst running up 15% inflation .

The Ottomans had embarked on a period of consolidation and instead of maintaining their army (the finest in Europe under Sulieman) they poured money into conversions instead.
Their intervention was unwarranted as it was an aggressive war by France and Venice and somewhat complancent. Once France had capitulated they were lucky to get the peace they got.

 

[kurtbrian]

I'm truly sorry I didn't play last night, but my router died suddenly (can they actually do that..? I didn't know...)

And I got one of my friends to mail BiB at the mail adr in his ICQ details I don't know if it got through.

I really am sorry...

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Barnius
Would it really? Which country doesn’t fit in in your opinion? England should fight Spanish Armada. France should fight both Spain and Austria. OE is definitely Austrian enemy number one. Or Papal. Especially under Suleiman. Portugal will in 1580 be occupied by Spain. Should he accept vassalisation?

You were talking about them uniting against the Habsburgs, not pursuing individual mercenary concerns - a substantial difference.

Originally posted by Kurtbrian

I'm truly sorry I didn't play last night, but my router died suddenly (can they actually do that..? I didn't know...)

Yes, they can. Alternatively, your ISP was down for some time. It happens. (Thankfully rarely)

Good to know that nothing of a too permanent nature had happened to you

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Yes, they can. Alternatively, your ISP was down for some time. It happens. (Thankfully rarely)

Good to know that nothing of a too permanent nature had happened to you

since I got my replacement router this morning, I'm pretty sure it was my router that died....

EDIT: so who played denmark in my absense?

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
You were talking about them uniting against the Habsburgs, not pursuing individual mercenary concerns - a substantial difference...

You are right, as usually . So you mean it would be VERY strange if accidently English, French and Dutch navy some day engage Spanish in the same sea zone...

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
EDIT: so who played denmark in my absense?

I think it was manitou333

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Smirfy

The Ottomans had embarked on a period of consolidation and instead of maintaining their army (the finest in Europe under Sulieman) they poured money into conversions instead.
Their intervention was unwarranted as it was an aggressive war by France and Venice and somewhat complancent. Once France had capitulated they were lucky to get the peace they got.

Well, Austria was, to put it bluntly, substantially weakened after eight years of war. Since we are not playing total war here, the outcome in the central european theatre was about the best that could be imagined.

Anyway, let us just say that Venice has set itself up as target number one big time, and France as a destinct second, as they attacked eight months after the abdication of Charles V without any sort of diplomacy beforehand. Come on, if you are going to invade a neighbouring country that you have been at peace with for many decades, the very least you can do is to claim a pretext as justification for attacking beforehand. Manufacture an incident or something, and proclaim it to all and sundry. A great part of the RPG feel of diplomacy (for me) disappears when the first notice I have of an upcoming war is the declaration of war and troops already moving into my territory. According to the rules of gamesmanship of the times, that is decidedly unsporting.

For that, for the aggression against Austria-Italia, for plunging Italy into bloody war for the sake of greed, and for prolonging the war while the infidel Turk ravaged Bohemia, even though Venice itself was occupied by Italian troops under the command of Guglielmo, Imperial Prince of Mantua, and all that was asked was a halt to Venetian and French aggression, Maximillian II, son and successor to Ferdinand I, has taken to end his speeches to the clergy and the aristocracy with these words: Praeterea censeo Venetiam esse delendam.

The words are being well received. (Despite the obvious plagiarism, or, perhaps, because of it.)

Let us just say, that barring some drastic change in nation setup or some truly impressive between-sessions diplomacy, whoever plays Venice next time had better be prepared for bitter war.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
I'm truly sorry I didn't play last night, but my router died suddenly (can they actually do that..? I didn't know...)

And I got one of my friends to mail BiB at the mail adr in his ICQ details I don't know if it got through.

I really am sorry...

Considering my icq profile says I am from Estonia it is not that unsurprising that I will never see that mail

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Smirfy
It was France and Venice's decision to go to war they initiated it, and it is strange that France in particular made no preperations for war (portulgals army was in proportion bigger and I was contemplating no war). Secondly with Frances slider positions suiting a lightnening war rather than the long haul considering the lack of preperations, made the decision of going to war even stranger. France even managed to sent two colonists to India during the war whilst running up 15% inflation .

The Ottomans had embarked on a period of consolidation and instead of maintaining their army (the finest in Europe under Sulieman) they poured money into conversions instead.
Their intervention was unwarranted as it was an aggressive war by France and Venice and somewhat complancent. Once France had capitulated they were lucky to get the peace they got.

The finest army in the world for the whole game has been Spain's

 

[Smirfy]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Well, Austria was, to put it bluntly, substantially weakened after eight years of war. Since we are not playing total war here, the outcome in the central european theatre was about the best that could be imagined.

Anyway, let us just say that Venice has set itself up as target number one big time, and France as a destinct second, as they attacked eight months after the abdication of Charles V without any sort of diplomacy beforehand. Come on, if you are going to invade a neighbouring country that you have been at peace with for many decades, the very least you can do is to claim a pretext as justification for attacking beforehand. Manufacture an incident or something, and proclaim it to all and sundry. A great part of the RPG feel of diplomacy (for me) disappears when the first notice I have of an upcoming war is the declaration of war and troops already moving into my territory. According to the rules of gamesmanship of the times, that is decidedly unsporting.



For that, for the aggression against Austria-Italia, for plunging Italy into bloody war for the sake of greed, and for prolonging the war while the infidel Turk ravaged Bohemia, even though Venice itself was occupied by Italian troops under the command of Guglielmo, Imperial Prince of Mantua, and all that was asked was a halt to Venetian and French aggression, Maximillian II, son and successor to Ferdinand I, has taken to end his speeches to the clergy and the aristocracy with these words: Praeterea censeo Venetiam esse delendam.

The words are being well received. (Despite the obvious plagiarism, or, perhaps, because of it.)

Let us just say, that barring some drastic change in nation setup or some truly impressive between-sessions diplomacy, whoever plays Venice next time had better be prepared for bitter war.

My comments were a response to Dam's statements not with the nature of the peace which was settled with austria to my satisfaction by icq last night.

Yes with no with esculation of diplomatic tension it does not add much to the RPG nature of the game. The first i knew there was a general european war was when I was invited to honour the alliance

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by BiB
Considering my icq profile says I am from Estonia it is not that unsurprising that I will never see that mail

well, how was I to know that..

does that mean you are not 46 either...?

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Smirfy
My comments were a response to Dam's statements not with the nature of the peace which was settled with austria to my satisfaction by icq last night.

Yes with no with esculation of diplomatic tension it does not add much to the RPG nature of the game. The first i knew there was a general european war was when I was invited to honour the alliance

Though it really can swing too far the other way. Currently in the AAR thread The Armada has been announced 24 years in advance

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by BiB
Considering my icq profile says I am from Estonia it is not that unsurprising that I will never see that mail

It also says that you are a creature, and that is true enough

Originally posted by Smirfy

My comments where a response to Dam's statements not with the nature of the peace which was settled with austria to my satisfaction by icq last night.

Thanks, Smirfy.

I should perhaps also notice to all involved that the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I has been very satisfied with the aid given by Portugal against all aggressors, and by the Papal armies against the infidel. This has had some potentially far-reaching political ramifications that will be made clear in the AAR.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
It also says that you are a creature, and that is true enough


Thanks, Smirfy.

I should perhaps also notice to all involved that the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I has been very satisfied with the aid given by Portugal against all aggressors, and by the Papal armies against the infidel. This has had some potentially far-reaching political ramifications that will be made clear in the AAR.

Ur little nephew and ur alliance leader would appreciate some explanation regarding that too

 

[TheArchduke]

Tensions between Austria and France were always there and relations were at an all time low of -199 to -185. Also Austria knew that France didn´t look kindly on the annexations and secondly Henry II. came to the throne and eager for breaking out the Habsburg encirclement used the first oppurtunity for war.

It was a nasty attack but on my defence I was pushed by Venice to attack Austria. He declared that he would dow without or with me so what could I do?

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
Tensions between Austria and France were always there and relations were at an all time low of -199 to -185. Also Austria knew that France didn´t look kindly on the annexations and secondly Henry II. came to the throne and eager for breaking out the Habsburg encirclement used the first oppurtunity for war.

It was a nasty attack but on my defence I was pushed by Venice to attack Austria. He declared that he would dow without or with me so what could I do?

Venice was intending to dow and fight the habsburgs alone??!

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Well, Austria was, to put it bluntly, substantially weakened after eight years of war. Since we are not playing total war here, the outcome in the central european theatre was about the best that could be imagined.

Anyway, let us just say that Venice has set itself up as target number one big time, and France as a destinct second, as they attacked eight months after the abdication of Charles V without any sort of diplomacy beforehand. Come on, if you are going to invade a neighbouring country that you have been at peace with for many decades, the very least you can do is to claim a pretext as justification for attacking beforehand. Manufacture an incident or something, and proclaim it to all and sundry. A great part of the RPG feel of diplomacy (for me) disappears when the first notice I have of an upcoming war is the declaration of war and troops already moving into my territory. According to the rules of gamesmanship of the times, that is decidedly unsporting.

For that, for the aggression against Austria-Italia, for plunging Italy into bloody war for the sake of greed, and for prolonging the war while the infidel Turk ravaged Bohemia, even though Venice itself was occupied by Italian troops under the command of Guglielmo, Imperial Prince of Mantua, and all that was asked was a halt to Venetian and French aggression, Maximillian II, son and successor to Ferdinand I, has taken to end his speeches to the clergy and the aristocracy with these words: Praeterea censeo Venetiam esse delendam.

The words are being well received. (Despite the obvious plagiarism, or, perhaps, because of it.)

Let us just say, that barring some drastic change in nation setup or some truly impressive between-sessions diplomacy, whoever plays Venice next time had better be prepared for bitter war.

We need a very good replacement for PJL. Venice is too important to be left for partition between OE and Austria. Not that I expect from OE to support such an "solution". Being the expert in struggle for independence, Dutch people clearly see Venice has the most rights on Italian possessions and hopefully one day perfidious Habsburgs (of both lines) will be expelled from Italy.

I fully agree pre-war diplomacy is needed if we are to pursue role-playing game stile. As well as having at least SOME cause for war. Let’s hope that will help Genoa to stay independent. I noticed she is “prepared” for annexation, Austria has lost her only CoT, and acquiring Veneto is a tricky business…

 

[Wyvern]

Talking about a lack of roleplaying, you're walking on thin ice BiB , breaking your alliance with England in-game with no explanation or build up to it other than to say afterwards when I queried you that "I'll explain it in the AAR"? Not very RPG'ish I feel.

I do wonder about this request to marry Elizabeth you mention in your AAR? No such request has been delivered to the English court so far .