Machiavelli : Europe Arising

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Damocles
BiB and Peter played extremely well...

Some serious, thorough and coordinated actions will be needed to make things at least a bit more balanced. And it will all have to be long term planning. Holland, IF formed, will surely try to give her contribution. But coordination, clear goals, clear tasks, ... that's what is needed. And a leader of the anti-Habsburg alliance, who will have the trust of all members. Any volunteers?

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Barnius, very simple summary of how the Habsburgs won:

1. France had about 100k troops when they dowed, but Spain and Austria each had 100k troops, too.
2. France failed to send siege forces to every single lowland province and just keep them there. They would move in, siege a bit with armies often bigger than necessary for the province, move the troops out to help on the southen front and repeat.
3. The Ottomans started the war with few enough troops on the front for austria to stall them long enough to force france out of the war with stab hits.

I don't think we can conclude that the Habsburgs are actually stronger than France and the OE combined.

 

[unmerged(10915)]

Well anyway this gives a certain RPGish feel that the centre of power isnt based around France, but around the Habsburgs. Sad i couldnt see the war, as i crashed out an hour before we stopped . I dont think any reparations have to be made, but i have to take a look at the save file.

 

[unmerged(10915)]

And im thinking of doing the same as PJL, though im really not going to leave the Machiavelli!
Being in 3 games at once is really too much for me.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Barnius
Perhaps, just perhaps, if England, France, OE, Venice and Portugal unite in the fight against Habsburgs we might have historical game in the future also.

Except that it would make very little sense from a RPG perspective, no?

And do not be fooled: It was extremely tough to fight France, the Ottomans, and Venice without leaders for the first four years, and the Ottomans mainly jumped on the bandwagon hoping to make Austria-Italia sacrifice the noble Mantuans to the greedy Doge of Venice and to force trouble in the Spanish lowlands. As such, the Ottomans, powerful though they were, were ill prepared for the war.

In an Ottoman led war, the Turk would have raised a standing army of 200K-300K and rolled over central Austria and the lack of defensive depth would likely prove fatal unless the defenders could hold Tyrol, leaving Italy uncovered as a recruiting ground.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein

3. The Ottomans started the war with few enough troops on the front for austria to stall them long enough to force france out of the war with stab hits.

Of course, Austria had to stall the Ottomans with only half our armies, as France and Venice kept attacking from the south and east, and with a disadvantage in leadership (I grew to truly hate Özdemiroglu Osman 2/4/3/0 and Guise 2/2/4/1). Fortunately, our superior firepower and the grace of God proved to be enough to halt the tide.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Damocles
Humbled my ass. I began that war at 25% efficiency (I.E, I had only a single 52k army at start, less then half Austria's total forces at the time) because I thought it was a closer match, and just wanted to force a quick peace and release of Netherlands. In a real war, both me and Peter know it would be very different. In a real war, I would take advantage of my higher support limit and start with 300k at least and full manpower to boot. Austria is in a very vulnerable position, to where if we had a serious fight, I could overrun him in a few months. Suffer horrendous casualties, but I could overrun and cover all his provinces. The strange turn of events that happened tonight was literally, the only conceivable way that the Habsburgs could have got a province off me.

Peter and BiB fought extremely well to boot.

Humbled. HAH.


P.S At the height of the war, with 167k manpower recruited at once, the Ottomans were never paying more then 10% income in maintenance.

Was anyone well prepared actually? I did not see this war coming at all! I doubt even France knew. Which would explain for ill prepared armies all around and how the war went.

The thing is, that unlike France and the OE, the Habsburgs actually spend quite a bit of money year in and year out to maintain a strong military presence, both in army numbers and land tech, and were rewarded for their efforts. This made us easily the best prepared nations in this war, even if we didn't have a clue the war was coming.

In fact I even was in rebuilding mode by spending most of my money on missionaries (damn incas) instead of the army. Turkey might have had a small standing army but my army wasn't even half my support limit either and my land tech wasn't the highest since ages

There also was the leader situation. Spain faced a France without leaders while having the Duque of Alva and Austria had no leaders to fight Suleyman (though later in the war Austria did get a decent leader and Alva moved in to Egypt, stretching Suleyman in his old day).

Money wise too the Habsburg had the edge. This ons was to be expected. Then again we very much needed the mercs to make up for the manpower deficit we very much still have (the OE has just about as much manpower as Spain and Austria combined).

Also navally the Habsburgs had the edge. My navy ruled the Med, I didn't see much enemy ships after kicking some initial arse. Enabled me to do some fun stuff, like landing in Egypt

When France was taken out (considering we don't play total war and I had stabhitted him down to -3 or so with like 71% warscore there was no way France should fight on) and I prepared to take on Turkey, I was in great shape. I had full manpower, a full warchest, a big army, a big navy and great leaders. Personally I think the OE should praise itself lucky Peter accepted that peace

This is now the 2nd time I get stopped taking Egypt (last war I was just about to land Cortés with a huge army there when peace broke out). The OE wasn't humbled but it would have been if the war had been continued, it could have been a lot worse, also for France, but it is great to not see the usual total war scenarios

PS this makes Spain sounds enormously powerful but read on for a mroe worrying insight

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
The game truly looks so historical. Spain is without any competition the most powerful country. And combined with Austria in her strategic position it looks invincible.
Perhaps, just perhaps, if England, France, OE, Venice and Portugal unite in the fight against Habsburgs we might have historical game in the future also.
But just perhaps. I would bet on eternal Habsburg hegemony. Especially taking into account Habsburg rulers, who actually had the courage to state they are primarily good economists. Imagine them as good in combat!

1) Yes, Spain is the most powerful country. Then again, it should be at this time.

2) Just like Spain is having its Golden Age when it should, it will have its decline when it should. Make no mistake about that.

Why? Well, already I have near 25% inflation, in 50 years I will have the odd 50% My tech will start suffering as an effect. Especially considering that unlike most nation I am not actively trying to be max innovative but actually am utmost narrowminded (and no, I do not need the colonists ) I will run out of leaders. I will get shitty events. My kings will be amongst the suckiest ever. I will go CRC. As a result of all that my trade income will crumble and I prolly will start getting gold inflation again (esp with those Dutch around, the Dutch btw will have a great starting position with great techs, great maps and so on - well, being at war with Spain is a bit shitty ). I play very RPG and thus I will have quite inefficient dp positions (moving towards free subjects when ur stab costs are near 4000 is not smart ) and event choices (u bet ya that I'd rather have the -5 inflation than expelling the Moriscos). It really is not the smart thing to do to play hardball with the dutch and not avoid the bankruptcy events. I'll be figthing stupid wars. And so on. Personally I'll be happy to see Spain still be a real power under Olivares.

 

[unmerged(10915)]

Luckily as Sweden, i can play a very efficient economy and dont have to hamper myself like Spain does.

 

[TheArchduke]

Or France.

Challenging the Habsburgs was too much for France it seems. And now War of Religion... Ah well.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Barnius, very simple summary of how the Habsburgs won:

1. France had about 100k troops when they dowed, but Spain and Austria each had 100k troops, too.
2. France failed to send siege forces to every single lowland province and just keep them there. They would move in, siege a bit with armies often bigger than necessary for the province, move the troops out to help on the southen front and repeat.
3. The Ottomans started the war with few enough troops on the front for austria to stall them long enough to force france out of the war with stab hits.

I don't think we can conclude that the Habsburgs are actually stronger than France and the OE combined.

Inderdeed. A next war the end result might very well be the other way round, make no mistake about that.

Well, when u have to choose between sieging the lowlands or saving Southern France, u are faced with a dilemma Had he not come to save teh south he'd have been out of teh war even sooner. Assaults against minimal forts work faster than sieges against medium ones. Not that it really mattered as eventually I just ran Alva thru there and swooped the Netherlands clear when one province had fallen. The Low Countries were more troubled by rebels than the French ...

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Barnius, very simple summary of how the Habsburgs won:

1. France had about 100k troops when they dowed, but Spain and Austria each had 100k troops, too.
2. France failed to send siege forces to every single lowland province and just keep them there. They would move in, siege a bit with armies often bigger than necessary for the province, move the troops out to help on the southen front and repeat.
3. The Ottomans started the war with few enough troops on the front for austria to stall them long enough to force france out of the war with stab hits.

I don't think we can conclude that the Habsburgs are actually stronger than France and the OE combined.

But that doesn't mean we can't repeat it over and over again until we all believe that and take necessary actions.

Perhaps they are not that much stronger generally, but the fact IS they defeated France and OE. I don't think your reasoning explains it. From posted maps I saw France and OE controlling situation till 1560, and that's well after the beginning of the war. So initial numbers were not important any more, but manpower. And France and OE should have been better in that. All I can think of is money. And BiB and PE playing extremely well, naturally.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Barnius
But that doesn't mean we can't repeat it over and over again until we all believe that and take necessary actions.

Perhaps they are not that much stronger generally, but the fact IS they defeated France and OE. I don't think your reasoning explains it. From posted maps I saw France and OE controlling situation till 1560, and that's well after the beginning of the war. So initial numbers were not important any more, but manpower. And France and OE should have been better in that. All I can think of is money. And BiB and PE playing extremely well, naturally.

I lost some battles but the stabhitting due to my occupied colonies and Veneto did it..

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Mulliman
Luckily as Sweden, i can play a very efficient economy and dont have to hamper myself like Spain does.

It'd be good for a laugh to compare tech costs for Spain and Sweden after the 2nd bankrupcy event (with some 50% inflation) with Spain all narrowminded and Sweden all innovative

It won't be pretty

Regarding the innovative slider, it's weird to see everyone fully innovative (people, like, say, the pope ) in an RPG style game but then again with no map trading all those nations have no access to overseas COTs.

The strangest thing about it is that I do not need the colonists and missionaries anymore from being narrowminded so that slider is just giving me enormous tech costs for a bit lower stab cost (which I also don't need anymore really) in return.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by BiB
Assaults against minimal forts work faster than sieges against medium ones.

Yes, I hope you liked your medium forts, BiB. I didn't have the finances to build up all my forts to medium before the Abdication of Charles V, but I did my very best. (All of Bohemia, Austria, and Italy, and three? provinces you inherited)

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Yes, I hope you liked your medium forts, BiB. I didn't have the finances to build up all my forts to medium before the Abdication of Charles V, but I did my very best. (All of Bohemia, Austria, and Italy, and three? provinces you inherited)

I wish I got the necessary exceptional year events to be able to afford forts and manufactories

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by BiB

...
Also navally the Habsburgs had the edge. My navy ruled the Med, I didn't see much enemy ships after kicking some initial arse. Enabled me to do some fun stuff, like landing in Egypt
...

This is inexcusable! Letting Hapsburgs have control over Mediterranean is really dangerous. OE can easily build a lot of galleys and with Venetian fleet they should have blocked Gibraltar. Or at least make Spain very hard time at seas. And harass her Italian possessions instead to be invaded in Egypt.

But it’s easy to talk about it. Hopefully I will get he chance to destroy Spanish navy with my Dutch one.

Originally posted by BiB
...PS this makes Spain sounds enormously powerful but read on for a mroe worrying insight

Nothing can change the truth: Spain is too powerful even on her own. With her Austrian ally it’s insane. All freedom loving people have to stand up against Habsburg yoke!

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Except that it would make very little sense from a RPG perspective, no?

Would it really? Which country doesn’t fit in in your opinion? England should fight Spanish Armada. France should fight both Spain and Austria. OE is definitely Austrian enemy number one. Or Papal. Especially under Suleiman. Portugal will in 1580 be occupied by Spain. Should he accept vassalisation?

 

[unmerged(15967)]

Originally posted by Barnius
Nothing can change the truth: Spain is too powerful even on her own. With her Austrian ally it’s insane. All freedom loving people have to stand up against Habsburg yoke!

Calm down, the Habsburgs didn't even get their historical part of Hungary back. France and the OE just massively underestimated them and paid the price, with proper preparations the result would have been very different.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

A bit more facts about overstretched Spain:

- for over the century she is preventing OE from expansion in Africa and depriving Sultan from at least vassal tribute from Algiers; instead Spain is collecting it from both Morocco and Algiers; and Morocco controls Timbuktu CoT – that’s asking trouble from OE, something I didn’t see too often in EU, for usually only Austrian Habsburgs were Ottoman enemies

- Spain is controlling Mediterranean sea angering OE and Venice; she is even using that situation actively and making visits to Egypt whenever she wants - that’s again asking trouble from OE

- Spain controls all seas and uses that fact without mercy, as France experienced in the last war; Spain is perfectly capable to defend her ENORMOUSLY large colonial empire, while in the same time she can occupy all other colonies in no time. And use that victory to take land in Europe! Now France will have to fight for Roussillon again, and she dropped her claims on Italian possessions. You can’t trust Spaniards…

- As said, Spain has by far the largest colonial empire, but in her never-ending greed she managed to anger England when she chased her out from Caribbean; Spain is just too greedy and too rich; her colonies should be divided between other colonial nations, especially gold mines, so that Spanish king can stop complaining about gold inflation

- And last bat nit least, Spain is brutally suppressing justified Dutch cry for more freedom. That’s really a perfect example of greed for power unseen in history!

Despite all attempts to justify that or explain that in “future” Spanish golden ages will be over, that WILL NOT happen by itself. Freedom loving people of Europe must stand up and unite against Habsburg yoke! If already it isn’t too late…