Machiavelli : Europe Arising

[ForzaA]

Originally posted by Barnius
In this campaign it looks like Spain was funding almost every country (is Netherlands the only exception? ).

I dont remember receiving funds from Spain either, perhaps we should killem ?


[notice: this was a JOKE and NOT something that calls for a preemptive strike ]

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Marcus Aemilius
Just to let you know there is still someone who red whole thread and did it recently - hm, this will probably create questions like: is he sane? )

No, no. That question is reserved for Barnius and used by anybody observing his antics and misuse of mathematics to support his cause. A more avaricious and possibly* delusional merchant is hard to find.


* The verdict is still out on this one, and hence the question.

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by ForzaA
I dont remember receiving funds from Spain either, perhaps we should killem ?


[notice: this was a JOKE and NOT something that calls for a preemptive strike ]

clever move, the disclaimer. You wouldn't want Spain invading...

 

[kurtbrian]

Btw, I can probably sub on a regular basis, if anybody would be insane enough to let me run their country for a while...

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
No, no. That question is reserved for Barnius and used by anybody observing his antics and misuse of mathematics to support his cause. A more avaricious and possibly* delusional merchant is hard to find.


* The verdict is still out on this one, and hence the question.

You are SOOOOO wrong! Dutch are well known for their generocity in awarding any services they receive.
Also, we are opened for all sorts of fair deals. Where "fair" means deals that provice benefits for both sides - like buying Cortesines (Phillipunes) from Spain for example: paid more than Spain invested in them, Spain got rid of the liability, while Holland in the long run profited from those colonies.

Moreover, how can you persist in those silly accusations about our avarice, when more often than not we used to pai before the delivery! The practice we learned to awoid in the future, because it looks like some "merchants" we are dealing with do not share our high standards of conducting business!
So, let me assure all interested parties that Holland is a honourable country with large resources, which she is ready to use for her deffense. However, since we do not have a reason to hope we will receive some additional services in the future (game over ), we will make business onthe bases of payment upon delivery terms - or payment WHILE delivering if needed .

And regarding "misuse of mathematics", I would really ask youo to provide some speciffics, because I really try not to make mistakes when providing numbers. Naturally, you can always use numbers to prove some point, but that still doesn't mean numbers are not correct. I hope that's what you were refering to.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
Btw, I can probably sub on a regular basis, if anybody would be insane enough to let me run their country for a while...

Most likely Holland will need a sub tomorrow. It would be so right you to do it . First, Holland wishes to remain neutral in any possible conflict. But Holland is a honorable ally, so she will answer a call for help if her allies are attacked.
So you coud once again stand side by side with your mentor The Emperor and prove what you have learned . And don't be affraid, you can't do worse than I have done when attacked by Prussians. It is EXPECTED Holland to be occupied in a short time. But it is also expected Holland to strongly financially support enemies of her enemies .

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by ForzaA
I dont remember receiving funds from Spain either, perhaps we should killem ?


[notice: this was a JOKE and NOT something that calls for a preemptive strike ]

Yeah. Sometimes people get confused over such things.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by ForzaA
I dont remember receiving funds from Spain either, perhaps we should killem ?


[notice: this was a JOKE and NOT something that calls for a preemptive strike ]

Spain is now run by a much more sensible leadership than in the past. Hopefully we are safe from all irrationalities we withnessed earlier.

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Barnius
Most likely Holland will need a sub tomorrow. It would be so right you to do it . First, Holland wishes to remain neutral in any possible conflict. But Holland is a honorable ally, so she will answer a call for help if her allies are attacked.
So you coud once again stand side by side with your mentor The Emperor and prove what you have learned . And don't be affraid, you can't do worse than I have done when attacked by Prussians. It is EXPECTED Holland to be occupied in a short time. But it is also expected Holland to strongly financially support enemies of her enemies .

well, actually, tomorrow, I can't but the other tuesdays should be fine.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

I will most likely not be able to play tomorrow as I am suspecting my birthday will not pass as unnoticed as I "hoped" for.

Mission: "getting superb sub" started....

I will post an AAR to guide the sub. I will may be able to join at 21,22,23 CET but I really don't know yet.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
Btw, I can probably sub on a regular basis, if anybody would be insane enough to let me run their country for a while...

It's very handy to always have a supersub standby

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Barnius
In this campaign it looks like Spain was funding almost every country (is Netherlands the only exception? ).

Actually I funded surprisingly few nations

Portugal, Prussia and England. That's about it. I also gave Austria and France considerable monetary warhelp depending on dynastical ties but I didn't fund them.

Holland is the only nation I funded against though

 

[Wyvern]

We have something like a week to go before Mach2 and a few things need clarifying (at least for me) before then.

• Map trading - when is it allowed and under what circumstances? My own view is that after 1600 it would be appropriate to open up trading. Prior to that it should still be allowed for a country to open up trade to specific CoT's if they wish - I'm thinking places like Timbukto here. The reason they might want to do this is to avoid the CoT shrinking because not enough people know about it.
• Colonising - what are the early limits? Are we going to run with some of the suggestions that where made long ago e.g. we said you had to build a level 3 or perhaps even level 7 trading post before you could raise a province to a colony so as to slow things down so the Dutch and other late colonisers would still have room. I like this idea as it doesn't require any other restrictions, without it I suggest that nobody can go past India until after 1600.
• Leaders - is anything going to be edited, and if so what? I assume Portugal is going to get some Admirals for example and perhaps Denmark some leaders? Is France going to lose her Admirals? I suggest that should wait actually as it isn't impossible that France will not develop a large navy.
• Is Persia still going to be the cutoff to the east? I assume so as that worked well imo.
• Anything else? There must be but I can't think of it at the moment .

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by BiB
Actually I funded surprisingly few nations

Portugal, Prussia and England. That's about it. I also gave Austria and France considerable monetary warhelp depending on dynastical ties but I didn't fund them.

Holland is the only nation I funded against though

Hah And it almost destroyed me. If there wasn't some 4000 d in the treasury Holland would be history. Hopefully 30000 d now will also be enough.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Wyvern
[*]Map trading - when is it allowed and under what circumstances? My own view is that after 1600 it would be appropriate to open up trading. Prior to that it should still be allowed for a country to open up trade to specific CoT's if they wish - I'm thinking places like Timbukto here. The reason they might want to do this is to avoid the CoT shrinking because not enough people know about it.

I'll reiterate my point from last time but to which I didn't get any reply :

"In reality there is a vast difference between knowing there is an America and where it is and being able to set up extensive colonising there and setting up a trade presence. In the game there isn't. Which is problematic and needs some sort of solution. I chose to have nations not know over having unrealistic colonisation or trade presences.

But if u have a better idea to fix this, be my guest and suggest it."

So u might ridicule all u want that Poland doesn't know America come 1700 but that doesn't have any distorted ahistorical effects whereas Poland, without ever investing a dime in a naval tradition, suddenly having the ability to trade anywhere, anyplace overseas does have a great effect, a very ahistorical one at that. IF u want to trade in overseas COTs, get a navy worthy of that name.

Poland in history knew where India was. It doesn't mean it could set up a trade empire there. Countries back then inderdeed knew about those continents, however very few were able to take advantage of them. That is historical.

Also, 1600 is the date at which point the Dutch only started exploring and colonising and thus is way to soon IF there should be a point at which it should be allowed. Why should Poland have knowledge of Indonesia for no effort at a time when the Dutch didn't even?

I don't see how u can make fun of Poland not knowing the position of America, which is incorrect but has no ill side-effects but only happily would accept Poland not doing an ounce for anything naval and just receive the ability to set up a vast overseas empire, which is wrong and does have serious side-effects.

As I said before, suggest a better solution than a ban on map trading and I'm game. I just haven't heard one yet.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

Well, Wyvern. If you permit a bystander I believe one of the more important thing is how to deal with bad behaviour/language during game. There are numerous complaints about it in the thread. If I were GM the rule would be that if someone thought another player broke the rule of courtesy he should immediately report him (surely it can't be a her ) to the GM who pauses the game and settles the issue. If the accused is guilty and does not repent he is thrown out of the game. In addition: you are not allowed to complain after the game. Either report when it happens or live with it.

After a few such "pauses" my belief is that players would get used to the new standard of behaviour and follow it. New subs may need a clear statement of this policy before game starts.

 

[Wyvern]

The thing is we need to strike a balance between gameplay and historicity. Having Spain trading unopposed in the eastern cot's is not good for game balance in my view and just because for example Poland manages to get maps of the east in 1600, or lets say 1650, this by no means means she will be able to create much of a trading presence. She will still need to have pushed her trade efficiency very high to compete on anything like an even footing and will have to divert lots of funds into trading against Spain or Holland and is unlikely to be able to do that. Map trading after 1600 would allow for a more diverse colonial scene though which would be good for the game and be more historical. Sweden and Denmark colonised too, but rarely get a chance to do so in eu2, even Prussia had the odd colony I believe as did Curland. You downplay the knowledge of the Americas a little much I think .

As always gameplay and historicity should be viewed together. Not that map trading is a big problem for historicity. Banning it till 1600 has the required effect of giving the traditional big colonisers a head start, and even with map knowledge, they we have to send explorers to discover any uncolonised land. It will give CoT knowledge but then as I've said above, only the highly trade efficient nations can really make big use of this, which is appropriate anyway.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Wyvern

Sweden and Denmark colonised too, but rarely get a chance to do so in eu2, even Prussia had the odd colony I believe as did Curland. You downplay the knowledge of the Americas a little much I think .
.

Austria damnit!

Austria colonised too.

Apart from that I second Wyvern. We should start discussing Mach 2..

 

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Daniel A
Well, Wyvern. If you permit a bystander I believe one of the more important thing is how to deal with bad behaviour/language during game. There are numerous complaints about it in the thread. If I were GM the rule would be that if someone thought another player broke the rule of courtesy he should immediately report him (surely it can't be a her ) to the GM who pauses the game and settles the issue. If the accused is guilty and does not repent he is thrown out of the game. In addition: you are not allowed to complain after the game. Either report when it happens or live with it.

After a few such "pauses" my belief is that players would get used to the new standard of behaviour and follow it. New subs may need a clear statement of this policy before game starts.

I think everyone understands that bad behaviour is no longer tolerated in this regard. If someone has an issue with someone's behaviour they should bring it to the attention of the GM who can settle the issue if necessary. Certainly a clear statement to this effect would be good to include along with other rules at the start of the Mach2 thread (assuming we're going to start a new thread ).

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Wyvern
The thing is we need to strike a balance between gameplay and historicity. Having Spain trading unopposed in the eastern cot's is not good for game balance in my view and just because for example Poland manages to get maps of the east in 1600, or lets say 1650, this by no means means she will be able to create much of a trading presence. She will still need to have pushed her trade efficiency very high to compete on anything like an even footing and will have to divert lots of funds into trading against Spain or Holland and is unlikely to be able to do that. Map trading after 1600 would allow for a more diverse colonial scene though which would be good for the game and be more historical. Sweden and Denmark colonised too, but rarely get a chance to do so in eu2, even Prussia had the odd colony I believe as did Curland. You downplay the knowledge of the Americas a little much I think .

As always gameplay and historicity should be viewed together. Not that map trading is a big problem for historicity. Banning it till 1600 has the required effect of giving the traditional big colonisers a head start, and even with map knowledge, they we have to send explorers to discover any uncolonised land. It will give CoT knowledge but then as I've said above, only the highly trade efficient nations can really make big use of this, which is appropriate anyway.

The thing is Spain does not trade unopposed. Not even mentioning the fact the new trade system that was intricuded halfway thru the game (which hurts Spain), tehre is competition from Portugal, Holland, England, France and a hoist of other nations.

Nations like Denmark and Sweden have every chance in the game to go colonial and in our game Denmark even did. People just want to have all that without making an effort for it. Sweden went full land, why on earth should they get the benefits of explorers?

Sweden does have high trade effeciency. In our game we have a Sweden with no naval radition worthy the name rake in tons of overseas trade. Now that is wrong and has farreaching effects. Sweden gets all teh benefits of being landoriented and can trash Denmark more easily because of it and at the same time they don't have to go naval like Denmark to get overseas trade income and colonisation.

Also, otehr nations joining the colonial scene happened after the date at which teh tech that allows exploration with all navies. So, just a bit of investment in naval tech and u can simulate that too.

Not to mention the many weird exploitative routes it opens up. Holland, due to being in a shit position, will give Spain's maps to everyone for example (Holland shouldn't even start with Spain's maps for that matter).

I was going to post a hoist of ideas anyway when Mach 1 was finished and I don't think we need a new thread