Machiavelli : Europe Arising

[Slargos]

Originally posted by Damocles
Amusingly enough, after the war, which Poland was only able to escape from without losing many provinces by Dutch foreign aid, he proceded to EMBARGO me from his Danzig CoT.

Poland went with "Fuck it, Our principles are too important" in "Shall we embargo the dutch despite what they did to help us, now that they are throwing us bodily out of our own CoT despite warnings about the new policy".

I actually felt a bit of regret about doing it, but knowing you'd eventually have to ally with the french, my newest bitter enemy, I had no choice in the matter. It was ban the dutch, or say no to the only trade income I can get my hands on. You could've just respected the rule I set up about not sending any merchants to Danzig...

I hope you're not taking it personally, Damo.

Mulliman realized the error of his ways and rather than complain, promptly awarded me a monetary settlement and a TA when I embargoed him. A man who trades with respect.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by BiB
Doesn't even have to be a mistake. A story from way back during EU2 MP beta gaming. I was England, Johan was Castille, ProducePete was Austria and Warspite was Byzantium. I DOW'ed Byzantium (they refused to pay me back my 66 ducats ). The war raged on and even though I was pretty much untouched (though Johan was sieging Guyenne), my ally Burgundy was getting hit hard by Huszics's France (my vassal of all people ) and Austria. However my other ally, Naples was causing serious trouble to Byzantium. So to save my other ally I offered an alliance WP to warspite. He accepted as he was in dire straits. Needless to say his allies were very pissed However, there is an alliance leader for a reason and he has his role. IF there's anyone u should be mad at it is Wyvern for not talking it over (then again it most likely was just a fuck up anyway but these things can be done intentionally), even though he was in a perfect position to accept as he was getting mauled and was alliance leader, and not Peter. Anyway, if my alliance leader was getting beaten up I would send help instantly because otherwise rather sooner than later a peace u don't like will be forced upon him and u.

I'm 100% sure Wyvern is just a no good fuck up

Peter however, is a very smart lad, and he should have counted on Wyvern thinking it was a seperate WP

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Slargos
Poland went with "Fuck it, Our principles are too important" in "Shall we embargo the dutch despite what they did to help us, now that they are throwing us bodily out of our own CoT despite warnings about the new policy".

I actually felt a bit of regret about doing it, but knowing you'd eventually have to ally with the french, my newest bitter enemy, I had no choice in the matter. It was ban the dutch, or say no to the only trade income I can get my hands on. You could've just respected the rule I set up about not sending any merchants to Danzig...

I hope you're not taking it personally, Damo.

Mulliman realized the error of his ways and rather than complain, promptly awarded me a monetary settlement and a TA when I embargoed him. A man who trades with respect.

I said I was mildly dissapointed with you. Not angry. I'm not even angry at Wyvern. Its not his fault his parents dropped him on the head as a child repeatedly. I'm not even that annoyed at Red for being a drunken slavemaster fratboy to my ugly girl home alone on a saturday night over the subject of extorting gifts.

EDIT: I knew France joining Prussia was a massive mistake, because I knew Poland was a better ally. Either to have or to deny Austria. I fought him hard enough about it to where he banned and threatened to dow me

 

[Slargos]

Originally posted by Damocles
I knew France joining Prussia was a massive mistake, because I knew Poland was a better ally. Either to have or to deny Austria. I fought him hard enough about it to where he banned and threatened to dow me

Of course, you are not to blame for the irrational gameplay of a pissed off France player.
In retrospect, I should perhaps not have mouthed off quite so much to Red's inanities as to cause this situation.

We all make mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them. I learned many lessons yesterday, for which I am very pleased.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by BiB
Hey, I came up with that after an IMO legitimate complaint by Peter about that after that war.

Yup, and I sure hope it is considered for future games. However, for the remainder of this game, I had no intention of crippling myself with restrictions that did not apply to the opposition. I've felt like a sucker in the French/Austrian relations since around 1680 but there is a limit to what I will accept.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by BiB
Hey, I came up with that after an IMO legitimate complaint by Peter about that after that war.

As opposed to responding with some lame half-RPG, half lawyer-speak about why France behaving as it did with Spain squashing it's rebels to allow it was perfectly acceptable.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Damocles
As opposed to responding with some lame half-RPG, half lawyer-speak about why France behaving as it did with Spain squashing it's rebels to allow it was perfectly acceptable.

Eh?

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by BiB
Eh?

Oi.

My point was that when Peter made a legitimate complaint about something he construed as gamey, you actually responded to it in a constructive manner. Whereas, you could have dug up some lame excuse about how it was perfectly acceptable for France to RP going to hell with the stab hits, and to have Spanish troops killing the rebels so as to allow thatt strategy.

Move along, nothing to see here =P

 

[BiB]

I don't think what Peter did was gamey in any way though. I'd have done the same thing. If I were to get attacked by an alliance of 3 nations with the weakest link being the alliance leader I would focus on him and try and maul him so bad, so fast he would accept an alliance wide peace to save his own behind.

It is very important in MP who is the alliance leader, hence I was very surprised to see France continue letting Prussia being the alliance leader. Not a smart move as it turns out to be. After the Polish war France (and Holland) could just have quit the alliance and reformed it under French leadership. I'd do it if all of a sudden Portugal turned out to be my alliance leader.

Doesn't even matter about who was king at one time or whatever more (that's for filling up the AAR thread for ), it is a very legit strategy, after all an alliance is only as strong as its weakest link. Take that one out and u can achieve many things. Always protect ur allies.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by BiB
I don't think what Peter did was gamey in any way though. I'd have done the same thing. If I were to get attacked by an alliance of 3 nations with the weakest link being the alliance leader I would focus on him and try and maul him so bad, so fast he would accept an alliance wide peace to save his own behind.

It is very important in MP who is the alliance leader, hence I was very surprised to see France continue letting Prussia being the alliance leader. Not a smart move as it turns out to be. After the Polish war France (and Holland) could just have quit the alliance and reformed it under French leadership. I'd do it if all of a sudden Portugal turned out to be my alliance leader.

Doesn't even matter about who was king at one time or whatever more (that's for filling up the AAR thread for ), it is a very legit strategy, after all an alliance is only as strong as its weakest link. Take that one out and u can achieve many things. Always protect ur allies.

Wyvern didn't accept an alliance wide peace to save his own behind. He thought he was accepting a seperate peace.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Damocles
Wyvern didn't accept an alliance wide peace to save his own behind. He thought he was accepting a seperate peace.

So, how on earth is this in any way Peter's fault?

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by BiB
So, how on earth is this in any way Peter's fault?

Yeah, personally I blame France!

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Originally posted by Damocles
Wyvern didn't accept an alliance wide peace to save his own behind. He thought he was accepting a seperate peace.

When I received a peace offer last time alliance or separate peace was clearly stated on the pop up window. You can hardly blame PE for this.

It's all a cunning move from Wyvern I think.

 

[unmerged(15723)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Love your .sig, by the way. Aldo Akhbar!

Well thank you! Nothing beats the informative sig of yours of course. Gives you good reading for months!

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Aldo
When I received a peace offer last time alliance or separate peace was clearly stated on the pop up window. You can hardly blame PE for this.

It's all a cunning move from Wyvern I think.

Now Wyvern is someone I'd be very pissed off at

 

[Slargos]

Btw. Looking at Red's "AAR", it becomes obvious how much of a "pre-planned" move the aid to prussia was.

We got into an argument over ICQ about another game, and he takes it out on me in this game. I can accept that, but his constant lies are starting to weary me.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by BiB
So, how on earth is this in any way Peter's fault?

Peter knew Wyvern would think it was a seperate peace. If he knew it was an alliance white peace, he would never accept it. Thus the only reason for offering it, would be on the chance that Wyvern thought it was a seperate. Only then would Wyvern accept it.

Otherwise, there was no reason to offer it.

 

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Slargos
Btw. Looking at Red's "AAR", it becomes obvious how much of a "pre-planned" move the aid to prussia was.

We got into an argument over ICQ about another game, and he takes it out on me in this game. I can accept that, but his constant lies are starting to weary me.

I have to disagree with you here Slargos - Red and I discussed our alliance at the weekend and finalised it Monday evening, long before any arguement he had with you yesterday. Just because it seemed strange that France would ally with Prussia doesn't mean there wasn't a good reason for it. As I said to Red Monday - "... the only reason you've got this deal with freddy is so he can have his polish war - he's willing to do whatever's required for his revenge on Poland (even allying with the devil) - I'll be putting up another AAR piece tonight setting the scene ...". The AAR piece went up and Freddy got his war, if not his revenge.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Damocles
Peter knew Wyvern would think it was a seperate peace.

How many times must you repeat this slander, Damocles? It grows tiresome beyond belief. As I have stated time and time again, when I am alliance leader and make an offer to another alliance leader, it is an alliance-wide peace suggestion unless I state otherwise. I expect the same when I receive offers, and, if I am in in doubt, I ask the person sending the offer. I sent an alliance peace offer and expected Wyvern to treat it as such.

Originally posted by the same ham-fisted Tyrant as quoted above
If he knew it was an alliance white peace, he would never accept it. Thus the only reason for offering it, would be on the chance that Wyvern thought it was a seperate. Only then would Wyvern accept it.

Otherwise, there was no reason to offer it.

Furthermore, as I have also explained before, I thought there was a real chance of Wyvern accepting an alliance peace, as his position was precarious, his monarch had changed, and his allies had been thrown out of most of their conquests. Given the war situation, it was a fair offer, at least as I projected the further outcome of the war. Your projections may differ.

The one thing I would not want at that time would be a separate peace with Prussia, as that might cause Poland to desert the cause, and HAB+POL vs FRA+HOL+PRU is a much better proposition than HAB vs FRA+HOL in a prolonged war.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
How many times must you repeat this slander, Damocles? It grows tiresome beyond belief. As I have stated time and time again, when I am alliance leader and make an offer to another alliance leader, it is an alliance-wide peace suggestion unless I state otherwise. I expect the same when I receive offers, and, if I am in in doubt, I ask the person sending the offer. I sent an alliance peace offer and expected Wyvern to treat it as such.


Furthermore, as I have also explained before, I thought there was a real chance of Wyvern accepting an alliance peace, as his position was precarious, his monarch had changed, and his allies had been thrown out of most of their conquests. Given the war situation, it was a fair offer, at least as I projected the further outcome of the war. Your projections may differ.

The one thing I would not want at that time would be a separate peace with Prussia, as that might cause Poland to desert the cause, and HAB+POL vs FRA+HOL+PRU is a much better proposition than HAB vs FRA+HOL in a prolonged war.

Fine.

Then you are hopelessly optimistic and/or pathetically naive.

Neither of which is true, yet according to your explantion, that is the only possible reason.