Machiavelli : Europe Arising

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by BiB
U do realise that Austria and Brandenburg alone have more manpower than France and Spain?

That is a very interesting statement, BiB, considering that it is false in every respect, as the Bourbons have a higher manpower/year both before dp adjustments (the potential manpower) after dp adjustments (the current actual manpower), and, additionally, larger standing armies and a higher support limit, as the following figures from the current situation (January 1701, the latest edited file) clearly show:

[color=white][font=courier new]
              Manp/year base    Manp/year (DP)   Current Armysize   Support Limit
Brandenburg        32.00K            33K              102K              105K
Habsburgs          69.75K           100K              282K              296K
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[color=gold]Imperial          101.75K           133K              384K              401K[/color]


France             81.00K            85K              320K              301K
Spain              50.50K            50K              340K              339K
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[color=skyblue]Bourbon           131.50K           135K              660K              640K[/color]
[/font][/color]

As can be seen, the Bourbons are ahead in every single category relevant to manpower and the size and number of armies fielded. Only the fact that the Bourbon troops are of universally high quality brings the actual manpower to approximately the same size for both sides, though the Bourbons have a slight edge. (Which will increase by about 5.0 as soon as France makes peace with Baden for Alsace and Lorraine)

You have a number of potentially good cards to play, when you want to display France and Spain as being vulnerable, BiB. I advise you to use them rather than present bogus claims that can be disproved by empirical evidence

 

[BiB]

The only number that matter to normal people regarding manpower is not there! The max manpower thingy. Those are 268K versus 271K. Sorry for being, like, 4 (!!) off because I did the numbers of the top of my head But heaven forbid the Habsburgs would have to stop complaining about how unfair this fight is But as u seem to like to do things in detail and not of the top of ur head, now do the money thing then. I think that will more than make up for that massive manpower defecit u have there

 

[unmerged(5161)]

Wow! That is the first post I have seen by BiB where he was MAD. Not annoyed, or sarcastic, or flippant; but mad. Hmmmm...... I shall brood over this turn of events

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by ryoken69
Wow! That is the first post I have seen by BiB where he was MAD. Not annoyed, or sarcastic, or flippant; but mad. Hmmmm...... I shall brood over this turn of events

"That" was supposed to be MAD ?!

 

[unmerged(5161)]

Yeah. Normally you are like, "yeah, whatever"

That was, "No, no, no, you are a retard"

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
The King of Austria-Italia, Leopold I, thinks the Elector of Brandenburg is slightly overreaching himself. Nevertheless, as Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, he must think of the greater good of the Empire, rather than his personal interests, and he grants recognitioning of the Elector as the rightful King of the new Kingdom of Prussia, whereby the Emperor means the territories of Brandenburg and the province of Prussia. As all men know, none can be king save with the blessing of the Emperor: That blessing is given.

With greater status comes greater responsibilities, and as the new King of Prussia grows into his strength, he must look to forego many of the benefits that accrued to him when he was but a prince, for it is not well for a king to be too beholden to another monarch.

As a sign of his favour, the Emperor grants the King of Prussia the right to carry the small black eagle, signaling devoting to the Imperial cause. The King of Prussia is also appointed Sword of the North with the responsibility of guarding the Northern German states of the HRE from all foreign aggressors. Moreover, for the betrayal of the HRE by the Rhinepfalz Palatinate, the Emperor lays upon the Sword of the North the task of defeating the Palatinate, humbling the prince's armies, and, if necessary, to make a clean sweep of the religious deviants in the name of the Lord our savior.

Thus say Leopold I, Archduke of Austria, King of Italia and of Bohemia, Lord of the sands, and Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.

Preparations for the crowning are taking place as we speak.

Friedrich ásumes the title of Sword of the north and the responbility it brings.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by BiB
The only number that matter to normal people regarding manpower is not there! The max manpower thingy.

If normal people want to see the max manpower pool size, they should be able to multiply the manpower gain/year (after dp modifications) by two, to get a result that is within 1K of that written on the screen by EU2 for manpower pool size. (A question of rounding)

But heaven forbid the Habsburgs would have to stop complaining about how unfair this fight is

Hey, that was not a complaint about unfairness, BiB! It was just noting that your categorical claim of Imperial superior manpower was patently false, which is an entirely different affair.

After all, I even left out the manpower of the French ally in the Fight, the 4 province Palatinate, and the Imperial ally, the 1 province Saxony, on the reasonable assumption that whatever damage they would inflict with their initial armies, they would not be able to utilise their yearly manpower in any sensible way for long. If I had been complaining, those would have been added in using Barniesque techniques of obfuscation.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by BiB
But as u seem to like to do things in detail and not of the top of ur head, now do the money thing then. I think that will more than make up for that massive manpower defecit u have there

*sigh* I did not notice a massive manpower deficit. As stated, I noted that "[...]brings the actual manpower to approximately the same size for both sides, though the Bourbons have a slight edge (Which will increase by about 5.0 as soon as France makes peace with Baden for Alsace and Lorraine)"

How on earth will the "money thing" make up for slightly lower manpower and substantially lower standing armies? Money will not buy me love - nor victory in battle. Currently, there is exactly one mercenary company left in the mercenary pool (somebody has had to recruit a significant number of mercenaries recently to stem the initial French assault on Baden, and others may have been hiring as well ), and all the four economies involved are easily capable of earning enough money to empty their manpower pools and keep them empty, with the monthly extra mercenary company going to the nation that clicks hire the swiftest on the first of each month

 

[Damocles]

How is it possible for the Habsburgs to have the edge in funding over France and Spain?

 

[unmerged(15967)]

The coalition should get at least England involved directly into the fight. Even just a single army under Marlborough engaging in hit and run tactics all over the frech coast could bind at least a third of the french war efford. If England can't get sea superiority in the channnel on it's own the dutch would need to get involved too, though. with Prussia next door moving and the Austrian Netherlands between them and France they should be defensible.

BiB adds the income of friendly neutrals to that of the Habsburgs, that's how .

 

[ForzaA]

Originally posted by BiB

- Bremen transferred to Prussia.

HEY! i agreed to transfer it to BRANDENBURG

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by ForzaA
HEY! i agreed to transfer it to BRANDENBURG

I agree.

There is no country of Prussia...yet.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
BiB adds the income of friendly neutrals to that of the Habsburgs, that's how .

Well, Holland and England both chose the option "Fight" in the succession event so they aren't neutrals, so those incomes do count already

Portugal isn't that certain in that regard but have u ever seen Smirfy's posts? He's about the most virulent anti-French player ever (let's get him to play France in next game ) and in game has been preparing for war for quite a bit already.

So methinks adding those incomes is a fair assumption

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
*sigh* I did not notice a massive manpower deficit. As stated, I noted that "[...]brings the actual manpower to approximately the same size for both sides, though the Bourbons have a slight edge (Which will increase by about 5.0 as soon as France makes peace with Baden for Alsace and Lorraine)"

How on earth will the "money thing" make up for slightly lower manpower and substantially lower standing armies? Money will not buy me love - nor victory in battle. Currently, there is exactly one mercenary company left in the mercenary pool (somebody has had to recruit a significant number of mercenaries recently to stem the initial French assault on Baden, and others may have been hiring as well ), and all the four economies involved are easily capable of earning enough money to empty their manpower pools and keep them empty, with the monthly extra mercenary company going to the nation that clicks hire the swiftest on the first of each month

As has been proven many times money can quite well make up for a manpower deficit (unless that deficit is way too big). Now add money to a situation where there isn't a manpower deficit worth mentioning ...

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by ryoken69
Yeah. Normally you are like, "yeah, whatever"

That was, "No, no, no, you are a retard"

Really? Ah well, all I can say is that I wasn't

 

[ForzaA]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
enough money to empty their manpower pools and keep them empty, with the monthly extra mercenary company going to the nation that clicks hire the swiftest on the first of each month

i see an opportunity for the Danish here

i have a lousy Manpower-pool, and still i cant empty it, perhaps someone would care to make a donation?





ok...........ok......

i will stop begging for money



Just hand it over NOW

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by ForzaA
i see an opportunity for the Danish here

i have a lousy Manpower-pool, and still i cant empty it, perhaps someone would care to make a donation?





ok...........ok......

i will stop begging for money



Just hand it over NOW

as soon as I start to earn more money than you, I will give you some...

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by BiB
As has been proven many times money can quite well make up for a manpower deficit (unless that deficit is way too big). Now add money to a situation where there isn't a manpower deficit worth mentioning ...

And as I pointed out, for the nations already involved, money is not that important - so long as every nation earns enough to recruit all its soldiers and recruit their share of mercenaries. More money does not really tip the equation in that case, which is why the overwhelming reason that I consider France and Spain to be the strongest are

1. Substantially larger standing armies - about 280K needs to be whittled away for force parity, and 2) their
2. A substantial advantage in leaders as the French Admiral program has been succesfully introduced in the army as well
3. Goals that are easier to accomplish than the imperial goals (e.g. the French goal of taking Alsace and Lorraine will be fulfilled as soon as two more French assaults succed, given Louis XIV a 100% victory score over Baden)
4. Concentration of forces

In other words, in order to avoid losing, all France and Spain has to do is defend their own land and beat up the AI. In order to win big, France also has to take the remainder of the (indefensible) Austrian lowlands.

Not that their victory is guaranteed, mind you, but they stand very strong and I can easily understand if some nations are a bit scared of the usual musical chairs dilemma of separate warfare.

The only use for more money would be to buy the services of more nations, presumably the very same nations providing the money

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
And as I pointed out, for the nations already involved, money is not that important - so long as every nation earns enough to recruit all its soldiers and recruit their share of mercenaries. More money does not really tip the equation in that case, which is why the overwhelming reason that I consider France and Spain to be the strongest are

1. Substantially larger standing armies - about 280K needs to be whittled away for force parity, and 2) their
2. A substantial advantage in leaders as the French Admiral program has been succesfully introduced in the army as well
3. Goals that are easier to accomplish than the imperial goals (e.g. the French goal of taking Alsace and Lorraine will be fulfilled as soon as two more French assaults succed, given Louis XIV a 100% victory score over Baden)
4. Concentration of forces

In other words, in order to avoid losing, all France and Spain has to do is defend their own land and beat up the AI. In order to win big, France also has to take the remainder of the (indefensible) Austrian lowlands.

Not that their victory is guaranteed, mind you, but they stand very strong and I can easily understand if some nations are a bit scared of the usual musical chairs dilemma of separate warfare.

The only use for more money would be to buy the services of more nations, presumably the very same nations providing the money

Having far, very far, superior leaders, enough money to use up all their manpower, which they had quite a bit more of to begin with, enough money for mercs, which they had all hired up beforehand for that matter, the strategical advantage and naval superiority did not get France and Holland to even take one of those indefensible lowlands (ok, they held Artois for a bit), not to mention the Franche-Comté, against Spain in the war between 1650 and 1660. They actually ended up losing.

As for leaders, Austria (5-5-5-1) and Brandenburg's best leader (4-5-5-2) are better than France's best (4-5-5-1). Spain's best (and only one for that matter) is 3-4-4. Also, most of France's leaders are just that, quantity. The 2nd best leader is 4-3-4 and the rest is worse. Austria meanwhile has a 4-4-4, a 3-3-4 and a 4-3-4 still (and imagine if u hadn't lost von Stahremberg). Even without Marlborough, one of the very best leaders in the game, u already have the leader edge.

And I ain't saying it isn't hard (it's supposed to be, for both sides) and of course we are strong and have our edges, but so are u and so do u and it's a far cry from an impossibility some are trying to make it out to be. And who knows, ur luck from last session could very well be mine the next

As for the separate peace musical chair thingy let me point out that in the aforementioned 1650-1660 war I managed to break the French-Dutch alliance in 2 and did not take advantage of that when I forced France out of the war by pounding on the Dutch (which I so easily could have ) and instead offered them the same peace.

 

[Smirfy]

Originally posted by BiB

Portugal isn't that certain in that regard but have u ever seen Smirfy's posts? He's about the most virulent anti-French player ever (let's get him to play France in next game ) and in game has been preparing for war for quite a bit already.

Thanks for that Bib the Commitee of Public Safety over at the French forums will be wheeling out the national razor for me.

I already put my name forward for France next game as you well know

Portugal making preprations for war? with whom?