Machiavelli : Europe Arising

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Smirfy
Admittedly it was tiresome , but I knew how much pleasure my fellow MP'ers would get from the admission.

The beauty with EUII is you discover something new with the game every time you play

Something I discovered by accident only a few weeks ago was that you could use the CTRL and number keys to make quick find assignments to your armies and fleets - especially useful when trying to keep track of your explorers. So if you click on a fleet or army and then press CTRL-1, in the future if you press the number 1 key, that unit will be selected, and if you press it again you'll go directly to it.

I'm sure you all probably knew this .....

 

[Mem de Sá]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Something I discovered by accident only a few weeks ago was that you could use the CTRL and number keys to make quick find assignments to your armies and fleets - especially useful when trying to keep track of your explorers. So if you click on a fleet or army and then press CTRL-1, in the future if you press the number 1 key, that unit will be selected, and if you press it again you'll go directly to it.

I'm sure you all probably knew this .....

Thats why I like this forum
New and usefull tips discovered evey day

 

[unmerged(6147)]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
Nice explanation to the concept of trench warfare in WWI, but it has exactly what to do with our game?

Because "trench warfare" has been forbidden in your game. And I could not see an explanation of what it meant anywhere. Could you?

Therefore I tried to get an explanation which Peter gave me. In his reply he stressed the word "reduction" and apparently did not agree. Therefore I explained the reason trench warfare occured on the western fron in WW1 (the most famous eample there is of trench warfare in RL) and that was to reduce the losses.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
They could hold Russia off with ease - in 1650, after eight years of war.

After 16 years of war, damn right, they could not. The Ottomans lost the war because of war exhaustion. The only reason that Damocles was right was exactly because this became a war of war exhaustion and trench warfare, something that should never have happened, if I understood BiB's first post in this thread right.

EDIT: To quote BiB from just before yesterday's session

Peter,

I don't often have the justification to write this...But I find that you are DEEPLY mistaken. It was not a war of war exhaustion. There were constant battles and invasions in the east. Yet it was a one province front with terrible supply all around, with a wintered medium fort in the middle.

Just look at the numbers. The Turks lost an astronomical amount of troops. The Polish lost more then the Russians...Yet from 1650 onwards, the Poles were mostly not even at war.

As I told everyone as it was happening, I annihilated numerous armies. Stein kept trying to break past Astrakahn and storm a bunch of minimal forts, yet I would destroy his infantry armies with a nice leader and 20k cav and some infantry.

I suffer horrendous attrition moving even from Samara (which can only hold 60k) and even then, I was able to fight past Astrakahn, Daghestan, and take Armenia and Trabzond...Then stick around to fight a couple battles before retreating.

Thats why there was a momentary pause in the war so I could save up the money to raise forts in Uralsk so as to have more supply from which to actually keep a hammer army in Uralsk instead of Samara while besieging Astrakahn.

I didn't reply to Stein's offer of taking and holding Astrakahn for six months within 2 years because it was IMPOSSIBLE.

Only after I fortified Uralsk, and had an army besieging Astrakahn...Which he then took 80k casualties in failing to dislodge, did he quit.

Also, it is apparent that all that talk about having 200k troops in position, and that we should just WP was bull.

Basically, the OE players were too prideful to admit defeat, and let their country go to ruin, while Poland and Russia are just fine. I even did some amusing colonization during the war.

I also find it a severe mistake to believe that most of the wars in the EUII period were not like this.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Damocles
Peter,

I don't often have the justification to write this...But I find that you are DEEPLY mistaken. It was not a war of war exhaustion. There were constant battles and invasions in the east. Yet it was a one province front with terrible supply all around, with a wintered medium fort in the middle.

And which part, exactly, of your explanation does not fit the trench warfare scenario?

As you yourself point out, the battles waged back and forth with nothing taken that could be held for any period of time, leaving the borders intact most of the time, as troops fell back on prepared positions following attempted breakthroughs of the enemy lines, with massive casualties inflicted. Is this not, exactly, the trench warfare we were talking about?

And was Johan's reasoning for finally making peace not that RR was sky high because of war exhaustion causing harm to the economy and rebels aplenty? I believe he said something not entirely unlike that.

Which, unerringly, leads me to a conclusion of trench warfare and victory by war exhaustion

As such, I can only assume that you have a different interpretation of trench warfare than I have, which is certainly your prerogative.

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by BiB
Because the Dutch have secret planes for machineguns

and maybe the will equip their planes with them!

 

[unmerged(6147)]

Originally posted by Mowers
Technically thats not correct.

Trench warfare came about because of an inability to exploit tactical success at an operational level, not because of machine guns. This was conclusively proved in the Spring Offensive of 1918. Machine guns had nothing to do with trench warfare ( In the ACW, where there were no automatic weapons but there was trench warfare). Tanks were not the reason for the end of trench warfare (the Iran-Iraq war proves that)

There were large number of pitched battles. The large number of casulties were not primarily to do with the size of the
armies but rather the economic, social, technological and cultural development conditions that existed.

regards

Mr picky-picky (the 2nd)

Sorry Mowers, I don't follow you. Your exposition is too theoretic for me to be able to understand. Perhaps this "operational" level you discuss is the ability to attack on open ground vs "machine guns".

Of course these guns was not the only reason. That's why I wrote "mainly because of the invention of the machine gun". Guns and rifles had also improved. As you say that could be witnessed already as early as in the American civil war. Wasn't it at Gettysburg the proud Virginian army was almost annihilated after having attacked bravely over open ground?

The fact that soldiers during all times have used trenchies or other things to hide themselves in/behind does not characterize those wars as trench warfare I think. Do you not agree?

That the large number of casualties did not have to do with the large armies is a surprising view. Of course many things combined too have this effect, not least the increased speed of fire as I have said, but the size of the forces involved of course had a profound influence on the size of the losses. But I will stop here, otherwise KurtBrian might say that we are hijacking this thread .

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Damocles

I didn't reply to Stein's offer of taking and holding Astrakahn for six months within 2 years because it was IMPOSSIBLE.

Only after I fortified Uralsk, and had an army besieging Astrakahn...Which he then took 80k casualties in failing to dislodge, did he quit.

But I thought that BiB had stated that you at least needed to hold the provinces you wanted when suing for peace?

Originally posted by Damocles
Also, it is apparent that all that talk about having 200k troops in position, and that we should just WP was bull.

Not unlike Russia's talk about of how many troops were being recruited after the first session of the war.

Originally posted by Damocles
I also find it a severe mistake to believe that most of the wars in the EUII period were not like this.

I think there are very few wars in the eu timespan, where countries ruined themselves completely instead of signing peace.

 

[Damocles]

Peter,

War exhaustion in the Ottoman Empire had been the same for the last 10-12 years. It was capped at 10-11. His revolt risk actually got better overtime...As his event went away, and his stab started to rise. Mine got worse, as I eventually reached my cap, and I got a negative stab, rr event.

You're just throwing the term 'trench warfare' around, even though our war had nothing to do with trench warfare.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
But I thought that BiB had stated that you at least needed to hold the provinces you wanted when suing for peace?



Not unlike Russia's talk about of how many troops were being recruited after the first session of the war.



I think there are very few wars in the eu timespan, where countries ruined themselves completely instead of signing peace.

Kurtbrian,

I find it difficult to respond to your posts lately, after you admitted to always being against me, simply because, you felt I was always complaining. I don't feel you're very objective, and your comments during our session was also very tiresome, yet I just ignored them. But I will respond anyways.

1) lol

2)I was in the middle of recruiting troops. Every province in the east was recruiting. I had 150k after 4 months.

3)That is Wyvern's and Stein's fault. Stein should have given up Astrakahn immediately, yet thanks to the NAIVE, MISINFORMED RUMBLING OF THE PEANUT GALLERY, he fought on and got destroyed. He ignored his entire country revolting away from him, just to keep flinging every soldier he could recruit into the meat grinder to try and stop me taking Astrakahn.

 

[Damocles]

The war in the east was basically a number of huge battles. Unfortunately, the Ottomans kept losing. Even though Peter has agreed in the past that losing entire armies was justification for peace, the Turkish players chose to ignore their country's crumbling status and instead fling more troops into battle...Who subsequently died.

It was not settled through war exhaustion. The war exhaustion of Poland, Russia and Ottomans were almost identical. It was settled because the Ottomans wasted all their troops on a one province front while letting their country go to hell because of the unrealistic expectations of the rest of the players.

And the only reason the war lasted 8 years longer then it should have been was because France, Austria and others funneled massive amounts of money to it, since of course, one always has to help the poor country being picked on by Damocles. (Even tho it was a war of self defense)

 

[Damocles]

In any case.

The Ottoman Empire's decline is in full swing. All because of an ill-reasoned decision to try, as Slargos would say, to pwn Russia.

I think the next perm Ottoman player will think once, then twice, whether or not he wants to strut his stuff in Russia's general direction.

Which is really, all that matters.

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Damocles
2)I was in the middle of recruiting troops. Every province in the east was recruiting. I had 150k after 4 months.

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen, the fact provider
That would be the ~57K troops that represents your entire army from the Baltic to the Pacific including current recruitment (none) and recently completed recruitment (most of this), as I can see now that I am trying to repair the save file, yes? (Machi2Poland_January_1650.eug) If you believe you should currently be recruiting more troops, and that they have not been written correctly into the save filed, please inform me.

Now, Poland has a real army (>100K), but Russia? Pfffft

Too bad for the Ottoman Empire that it only has a standing army of 154,000 to defend itself with at the moment and excellent manpower reserves,
really.

 

[Johan]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
And was Johan's reasoning for finally making peace not that RR was sky high because of war exhaustion causing harm to the economy and rebels aplenty? I believe he said something not entirely unlike that.

The economical reasons from RR and from the fact that OE was forced to print money, and use all its money on military resources, while the infrastructure of the country was hardly better than Songhai's, meant that it was utter stupidity to continue fighting for Astrakahn at that point of time.

OE also had worse techlevels than Poland.. *shiver*

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
Allthough I lack the linguistical skills the rest of you have, adn the ability to bring facts to a discussion like the Professor...

I agree with Peter, here.

Russia and Poland was only able to beat back he ottoman invaders. They could not push into the OE itself. Poland was beaten and left the war, only to reenter when we was down again.

The war should have ended during the first year of yesterdays session. It should have been a wp becasue no participant had the strength to win the war.

But the result was, (yet again) violation of the games spirit. because of some players stubborness.

I just can't help but remark how incredibly naive and misinformed the above sentiment is. Which I know, many players share.

The reality was nowhere this. Of course, the Ottoman players claimed this was the case, but only because they desperately wanted white peace.

Lets face it. The Ottomans have 200+ manpower, 200 income (more then Poland and Russia's income combined) and medium forts and a one religion state full of CBs, which should of made handling war exhaustion easy.

Yet, they got nearly destroyed through...I hate to say it...SHITTY GENERALSHIP.

Poland and Russia were hetero-religious states with mostly minimal forts and low income. The war should have ended with Ottomans giving away a couple provinces they could not hope to defend.

Yet instead, the Ottomans managed to defend these provinces...Only by completely ignoring the rest of their country!! They sold off 7 provinces in Africa, let the entire north african coast rebel. Let thousands of rebels run rampant over their country, all because they were too busy frantically misusing troops to actually contain their rebels, like Russia and Poland were doing.

To ask for a white peace, was basically begging for a handout. All of the players who supported it, even Peter, were basically naive as the numbers (the ultimate 'facts') attest.

 

[Damocles]

Don't try and be a smartass, Kurtbrian. You don't pull it off as nearly as well as Peter.

I was recruiting more troops then just what I was recruiting at the time. Four months after the session began, I had 150k troops. I was using the same provinces to mass recruit.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by Johan
The economical reasons from RR and from the fact that OE was forced to print money, and use all its money on military resources, while the infrastructure of the country was hardly better than Songhai's, meant that it was utter stupidity to continue fighting for Astrakahn at that point of time.

OE also had worse techlevels than Poland.. *shiver*

If its any consolation, the Ottoman's infrastructure level is still two higher then Russia

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by kurtbrian


Wonder how the war would have looked with ottoman maintenance at 100%...

They were at 100 maintenance the last half of the war. All that it meant previously was that the Ottomans were able to have even more troops in the field.

 

[Damocles]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
Nice explanation to the concept of trench warfare in WWI, but it has exactly what to do with our game?

Because our game didn't actually see trench warfare. Even in the proverbial form. It was just a catchphrase that the Professor started to throw around, and which the Ottoman players hastily picked up so as to try and get a forced WP.

Take Stein's view of the situation in the end and compare it to Johan's when he took over.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by BiB
Because the Dutch have secret planes for machineguns

<Bows to the Emperor> You are naturally right, your majesty
BTW, Dutch are very happy to see you took over ALL the duties of HRE, anti-Dutch propaganda included. This however is relatively easy compared to the primary reason of your very existence: watching over the integrity of HRE . Regarding that, we would like to humbly point out that recently Netherlands ended up at war against Denmark… Who owns Bremen… Please, say when we have to stop indulging in day-dreams and point us where the border of HRE integrity, your majesty’s patience or whatever lies.