Macedonia (Northern)

[Bert Macklin]

First of all, I am referring only to the new province of Skopie, not Greek Macedonia.

So, I have noticed that Paradox decided to make Macedonia Serbian culture in CKII even though there is no historical basis whatsoever for that - Macedonia was was under Serb rule only in the XIVth century but it was never populated by Serbs. Because EUIV is updated more often, when I saw that the same mistake being made in this game too, I requested an explanation which I found unsatisfactory, thus I am opening a separate thread to try and have this corrected before the new expansion is out.

As far as we could determine the province was pretty divided culture-wise. Serb was chosen over Bulgarian as it fits Skopje itself better in 1444. The Serb population still seems to have been the most influential at that point in the northern area as well (the province does not match the borders of modern Macedonia exactly) and a revolt here would in 1444 seem more likely to result in a Serb state like the ones that controlled the area before the Ottoman conquest.
On the other hand going strictly by majority the province should be Bulgarian and that's even more true for the later start dates.
I will agree it's not the most clear cut case of province culture on the map.

First, the area was populated by Bulgarians before and after this period, including modern southeastern Serbia. This is confirmed by the majority of historical sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia .
Second, what does a later start day matter if in 1444 the culture of the province is incorrectly Serbian and in such a game it will never be other culture except if converted to Turkish by the Ottomans?
Third, if you apply your logic by ownership, why don't you make Wales English, Finland Swedish and Flanders French (Flanders was a French feudal fief for most of the Middle ages)? For Christ sake, you even made Wallis and Vaud "Swiss"! Seems a bit ridiculous (besides the lack of consistency) doesn't it? And why would the Bulgarians there revolt to Serbia? Shouldn't you by the same logic also make Vidin and Sofia Serbian, they border Serbia too? By the way, ever heard of that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_Konstantin_and_Fruzhin ? Why didn't those rebels try to make Bulgaria a part of Serbia, if we follow your logic?

In light of these points, I see no reason why the province of Skopie shouldn't be Bulgarian in culture in EUIV.

 

[PiriReis]

Make it Turkish, everyone happy

 

[Te. Kenzo]

So let made it happen

 

[DanubianCossak]

First of all, I am referring only to the new province of Skopie, not Greek Macedonia.

So, I have noticed that Paradox decided to make Macedonia Serbian culture in CKII even though there is no historical basis whatsoever for that - Macedonia was was under Serb rule only in the XIVth century but it was never populated by Serbs. Because EUIV is updated more often, when I saw that the same mistake being made in this game too, I requested an explanation which I found unsatisfactory, thus I am opening a separate thread to try and have this corrected before the new expansion is out.



First, the area was populated by Bulgarians before and after this period, including modern southeastern Serbia. This is confirmed by the majority of historical sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia .
Second, what does a later start day matter if in 1444 the culture of the province is incorrectly Serbian and in such a game it will never be other culture except if converted to Turkish by the Ottomans?
Third, if you apply your logic by ownership, why don't you make Wales English, Finland Swedish and Flanders French (Flanders was a French feudal fief for most of the Middle ages)? For Christ sake, you even made Wallis and Vaud "Swiss"! Seems a bit ridiculous (besides the lack of consistency) doesn't it? And why would the Bulgarians there revolt to Serbia? Shouldn't you by the same logic also make Vidin and Sofia Serbian, they border Serbia too? By the way, ever heard of that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_Konstantin_and_Fruzhin ? Why didn't those rebels try to make Bulgaria a part of Serbia, if we follow your logic?

In light of these points, I see no reason why the province of Skopie shouldn't be Bulgarian in culture in EUIV.

1.) Macedonia was under Serb rule only in XIV century because no Serbian state powerful enough to take lands from Byzantine Empire had exited before that. Many territories on the Balkan peninsula that were owned by Byzantines had majority Slavic (in other words Serb) population and Greeks living in cities.
2.) Slavs (or in other words Serbs) had arrived to the Balkans peninsula before Bulgarians (6th century vs late 7th century) and by the time Bulgarians (who were Hun like Turkic people from today's Kazan area in modern day Russia) arrived, Slavs or Serbs were already living in Macedonia and even Bulgaria. Even in Greece itself, that was heavily depopulated by the time Bulgarians had arrived, Serbs were majority in the countryside with Greeks living practically only inside walled cities.
3.) Im getting seriously sick of Bulgarian nonsensical nationalism. You people tend to look at this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Bulgarian_Empire_during_the_IX-X_century.png and immediately go like "OMG Bulgaria big Bulgaria stronk, all lands owned by Bulgaria at its greatest territorial extent = naturally 100% Bulgarian". Which is nonsense. Bulgarians had powerful army that swept across the land, kicked the Greek butts, and annexed bucketload of land already settled by - wait for it - Serbs. That doesnt mean that everyone who lived there before you ceased to exist you know. Earliest Bulgarians were to Balkans the same thing as Mongols to Rus'. A steppe tribe of conquerors. Just as Russians arent today Mongols, all Balkan people are not Bulgarian.
4.) Skopje and Macedonian region in general were a fighting ground between Serbia and Bulgaria in CK2 time. During the earliest centuries, those areas were under Bulgarian influence, but just when Bulgaria was about to into space, battle of Velbuzhd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velbazhd happened, Bulgarians got their collective butts kicked, and that was the end of Bulgarian ambitions over Macedonia aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way to VMRO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization, which is quite recent history, and even then, you guys failed when Yugoslavia was formed and Serbia carried Macedonia with it as war spoils after Balkan wars (where collective Bulgarian butts got roflstomped pretty hard again).

So thats pretty much sums it up. 1444, right after Serbian empire and its capital in Skopje, Macedonia was Serbian.

 

[zemuzil]

it should be polish macedonians are just poles in deny
look how most thier surnames end -ski

 

[Bert Macklin]

This is hatefull trolling. Serbs and Slavs or Southern Slavs are not the same thing. Bulgarians are also Slavs. The Serbs also conquered at the same time Northwestern Greece, should Epirus and Thessaly also be Serbian? Where did you see Bulgarian nationalism in my post? Please stop posting here and don't derail my thread.

 

[jebates]

Let's just make it Greek and have Ottomans have an event once BYZ is gone to chose whether it becomes Serbian or Bulgarian.

Kidding! Mostly.

 

[DanubianCossak]

This is hatefull trolling.

The truth hurts, but it has to be said sometime.

Serbs and Slavs or Southern Slavs are not the same thing.

You have Slovenes in the west, Croats in the middle and then the rest of the Eastern Balkans is settled by whom? Who are those Slavs that lived there in 6th century? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Serbs

Bulgarians are also Slavs. The Serbs also conquered at the same time Northwestern Greece, should Epirus and Thessaly also be Serbian? Where did you see Bulgarian nationalism in my post? Please stop posting here and don't derail my thread.

Bulgarians are Slavs today. They were not Slavs when they had arrived to Balkans. Just as modern ancestors of Volga Bulgaria are not Slavs, despite being conquered by Russians centuries ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan

 

[Clownie]

Shit happens when a province can only have one culture.

Honestly, while Üsküp is probably wrong, riddle me this folks: how come Kostantiniyye is immediately Turkish when conquered by the Turks?

 

[Bert Macklin]

The truth hurts, but it has to be said sometime.



You have Slovenes in the west, Croats in the middle and then the rest of the Eastern Balkans is settled by whom? Who are those Slavs that lived there in 6th century? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Serbs



Bulgarians are Slavs today. They were not Slavs when they had arrived to Balkans. Just as modern ancestors of Volga Bulgaria are not Slavs, despite being conquered by Russians centuries ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan

Please, I implore the moderator team to intervene. I don't want my thread to be derailed. I made a perfectly reasonable post. I will not respond to claims that I am a Mongolian or something...

 

[Clownie]

Please, I implore the moderator team to intervene. I don't want my thread to be derailed. I made a perfectly reasonable post. I will not respond to claims that I am a Mongolian or something...

Modern-day Bulgarians are slavs, but the fact remains that they originally came from central Asia, much like the Hungarians.

 

[Bert Macklin]

Modern-day Bulgarians are slavs, but the fact remains that they originally came from central Asia, much like the Hungarians.

This has no connection whatsoever to XIV century Macedonia. Bulgarians are a mix of Bulgars and Slavs and the Bulgarian ethnicity as it is today was already pretty much formed at the time of Christianisation in the IXth century. In CKII at the earlier start date the rulers of Bulgaria are correctly shown as Bulgars from the Altaic group but the culture of Bulgarian provinces was Bulgarian of the Slavic group and in later start dates both characters and provinces are Slavic Bulgarian, except the error with Macedonia with which the Serbians had no deal whatsoever during most of the Middle Ages.

 

[DanubianCossak]

This has no connection whatsoever to XIV century Macedonia.

Yes it has. Who was living in Macedonia before Bulgarians had arrived to Balkans?

Bulgarians are a mix of Bulgars and Slavs and the Bulgarian ethnicity

What Slavs, name them?

 

[adijarca]

They should make macedonia Macedo-Romanian since they were the majority population until the 14th century when the serbs forced them into the mountains. Or just make it Macedonian culture and add it with Albanian, Greek and Romanian to a "balkan" culture group

 

[BarskiPatzow]

Please, I implore the moderator team to intervene. I don't want my thread to be derailed. I made a perfectly reasonable post. I will not respond to claims that I am a Mongolian or something...

Learn where the name of your people came. People living in Bulgaria are Slavs, but the name comes from those who conquered that lands, but got assimilated later. Only name remains.

 

[Bert Macklin]

No, for the last time, Slavs do not equal Serbs! Slavs were separated in many tribes before they formed separate nations. You can't call Slavs Serbs just because they are Slavs. Macedonia was ethnically Bulgarian during the Middle Ages. After the Byzantine empire conquered Bulgaria, modern Macedonia was organised in the theme of Bulgaria.

 

[Apolojuice]

I want to live in a world where I don't hear anything from the Balkans, ever.

 

[Kapitalisti]

Phew, I was almost worried that the new patch/dlc wouldn't upset some Balkanites.

Oh and btw, Finland (the province) IS Swedish

 

[TheChronoMaster]

I love the Balkans.

 

[Xaster]

But... do those things happen frequently there?