M5A1 vs Panter G

[Dunbal]

This is what is known as 'not an argument.'

The fact that I'm not going to produce my own game doesn't excuse Eugen/Paradox from their own failures.

No - the fact that you're nit picking over historical details in a computer game is the issue. Plenty of people are capable of being entertained with things that are less than 100% historically accurate. And the point of a game is entertainment, not historical documentation. "Failure" would only happen if they fail to entertain. Obviously YOU are upset, but that doesn't mean that Eugen/Paradox are "failures".

 

[Baane]

No - the fact that you're nit picking over historical details in a computer game is the issue.

When the game was first announced, they trumpeted historical authenticity and realism. It is not an 'issue' that a consumer should hold a product to its advertisement.

Plenty of people are capable of being entertained with things that are less than 100% historically accurate.

As am I. My favorite game, currently, is Sins of a Solar Empire. This is not a 'realistic' or 'historically authentic' game. The thing is: it doesn't advertise itself as such, so why would I expect it to be?

And the point of a game is entertainment, not historical documentation.

These two things are not mutually exclusive.

"Failure" would only happen if they fail to entertain.

"Failure" can occur from a great many things. Such as losing money because you failed to provide what you advertised.

Obviously YOU are upset, but that doesn't mean that Eugen/Paradox are "failures".

Ignoring the 'lol umad' meme, let's go ahead and make this real simple.

Did they advertise historical authenticity? Yes.

Is the game historically authentic in any way, shape, or form? No.

With regards to this nonsense about American 37-mm guns being able to penetrate the front vector of tanks like the Pz.Kpfw V, they can easily change this by switching around some numbers. Fair enough. They might even do that. But there are a great number of OOT units, botched TO&Es, etc. that constitute a total failure to provide what they advertised. No amount of strawmen pulled by you, or anyone else, is going to change this fact.

 

[Steeperman]

On the flip side L2P and stop relying on shoddy game mechanics to defeat Panthers you should be punished for YOLOing a light tank at a heavy and expecting it to win noob XDDDDDDD

Well, i never did that and won't do that in the futur... I have only destroyed Panthers with Stuarts and Greyhounds, which i placed behind a hedgerow, while the 12. SS- player has driven his tank on the street next to my Greyhound, were my Greyhound ambushed and destroyed it with first shot. I don't know, wether it was a sideshot or a frontal kill from a few hundret meters, but my opponent has driven his Panther to unaware in a zone, where it could easily be ambushed in close range, when ist not scouted out.

Over the past decade and a half, 'beta' has become more of an excuse than a legitimate reason.

There are a number of issues with this game that beta is not going to resolve.

They implemented several things, that were suggested in the VIP Beta and i don't know, why they shouldn't do that in/after this Beta.

We will see, which issues are worth to resolve and which will be resolved. There is no Point in drawing tht early negative conclusions.

 

[pbatt]

While penetrating a panther frontally may not be realistically possible, the armor penetration mechanic is excellent in that units that you bought in phase A don't magically become 100% obsolete in phase C.

I feel that the fact that a panther is letting a Stuart get within reliable frontal penetration ranges is simply a misplay and nothing more. Sure the gun may need tweaking, say from 8 to 7 AP, but the kinetic damage scaling feels right for this game which is not trying to be a perfect War-gaming simulator but an effective abstraction in the land of Company of Heroes, MoW, and others. Eugen has made a game which is able to cater to both Paradox and Wargame fans in different ways but compromises must be made so that we end up with a playable game that people will have fun getting into and involved. One should not need to know more than primary school mathematics and simple world history to understand the differences between units.

 

[Baane]

They implemented several things, that were suggested in the VIP Beta and i don't know, why they shouldn't do that in/after this Beta.

We will see, which issues are worth to resolve and which will be resolved. There is no Point in drawing tht early negative conclusions.

I imagine that it extends mostly to changing numbers around.

 

[Steeperman]

When the game was first announced, they trumpeted historical authenticity and realism. It is not an 'issue' that a consumer should hold a product to its advertisement.


As am I. My favorite game, currently, is Sins of a Solar Empire. This is not a 'realistic' or 'historically authentic' game. The thing is: it doesn't advertise itself as such, so why would I expect it to be?


These two things are not mutually exclusive.


"Failure" can occur from a great many things. Such as losing money because you failed to provide what you advertised.


Ignoring the 'lol umad' meme, let's go ahead and make this real simple.

Did they advertise historical authenticity? Yes.

Is the game historically authentic in any way, shape, or form? No.

With regards to this nonsense about American 37-mm guns being able to penetrate the front vector of tanks like the Pz.Kpfw V, they can easily change this by switching around some numbers. Fair enough. They might even do that. But there are a great number of OOT units, botched TO&Es, etc. that constitute a total failure to provide what they advertised. No amount of strawmen pulled by you, or anyone else, is going to change this fact.

I think you are overinterpreting "historically accurate" in this case. Alexis said in the EGX- streams, that the game wants to make up the optimal Balance between arcade and realistic and for my taste, they are doing this Job pretty well.

While penetrating a panther frontally may not be realistically possible, the armor penetration mechanic is excellent in that units that you bought in phase A don't magically become 100% obsolete in phase C.

I feel that the fact that a panther is letting a Stuart get within reliable frontal penetration ranges is simply a misplay and nothing more. Sure the gun may need tweaking, say from 8 to 7 AP, but the kinetic damage scaling feels right for this game which is not trying to be a perfect War-gaming simulator but an effective abstraction in the land of Company of Heroes, MoW, and others. Eugen has made a game which is able to cater to both Paradox and Wargame fans in different ways but compromises must be made so that we end up with a playable game that people will have fun getting into and involved. One should not need to know more than primary school mathematics and simple world history to understand the differences between units.

+1

 

[Steeperman]

I imagine that it extends mostly to changing numbers around.

For the most part most likely, yes. I would't expect something different to be honest.

 

[Baane]

I think you are overinterpreting "historically accurate" in this case. Alexis said in the EGX- streams, that the game wants to make up the optimal Balance between arcade and realistic and for my taste, they are doing this Job pretty well.

They aren't making an 'optimal balance.' They're throwing authenticity into the bin after they extensively made their advertising campaign solely about historical authenticity.

Yawn.

 

[Slahinki]

I feel that the fact that a panther is letting a Stuart get within reliable frontal penetration ranges is simply a misplay and nothing more.

But that is the problem though, such a range just does not exist, yet it does in-game. And it's stupid.

 

[Steeperman]

They aren't making an 'optimal balance.' They're throwing authenticity into the bin after they extensively made their advertising campaign solely about historical authenticity.

Yawn.

I understand your misery over advertisig such Things like historical authencity, when ist not absolutely the case ingame. Very likely that was directed to People, that don't know real live AT and AV values ito the last Detail or how much of some unit actually was in Normandy. For a game, that is directed at a relatively big Player base, it is nice, that they are focusing on the real Divisions and ineterseting and detailed Units, that were there.

But as i said: Alexis mentioned later, that the game is something like a mix between historical accuracy and arcade. From that Point of view, it isn't astounding, that the gameplay mechanics would make for the most part of the more arcadish things.

 

[Baane]

But as i said: Alexis mentioned later, that the game is something like a mix between historical accuracy and arcade.

No, it is not. There is no mixture.

 

[Steeperman]

No, it is not. There is no mixture.

Oh really? The Units?The Divsions?The maps? The Equipment of soldiers?

Yeah really, nothing at all.

This will be a 'not an argument' for you, but when it is so bad for you, don't buy it. It is like Battlefield 1 for me, it is for me a game, that wants to be over ww1, bot Looks from pace and weapons lke ww2.
In comparison SD 44 is a game, that delivers a specific Topic and (mostly) accurate Divisions, where the physics mechanics an some other gameplay aspects are simplified for the sake of accesibility and fun.

 

[Bastables]

Panther D has weak spots around the mantlet where the armor is 80mm thick at 12°. That enough for a Stuart to have a probability to pierce it at short range.

Also remember that most numbers you can read are a 50% probability to pierce, this probability don't fall to 0% when you increase armor thickness by a single millimetre.

From Lorrin Bird Panther Mantel vs 6pdr and 17 pdr, the latter two have a better TD ratio than the 37mm ever could.

starting from top edge of mantlet and working down (angle is measured from vertical, number in brackets is equivalent vertical resistance against 6 pdr/17 pdr APCBC hits):



UPPER HALF OF MANTLET



Rounded Areas

85 degrees, 20.6mm (135mm/117mm)

80 degrees, 27.3mm (156mm/137mm)

75 degrees, 34.2mm (163mm/144mm)

70 degrees, 41.2mm (162mm/144mm)

65 degrees, 48.0mm (160mm/144mm)

60 degrees, 54.5mm (146mm/135mm)

55 degrees, 60.6mm (139mm/126mm)

50 degrees, 66.2mm (126mm/117mm)

45 degrees, 71.3mm (117mm/111mm)

40 degrees, 75.9mm (109mm/105mm)

35 degrees, 79.9mm (103mm/98mm)

30 degrees, 83.4mm (98mm/95mm)

25 degrees, 86.5mm (95mm/91mm)

20 degrees, 89.2mm (92mm/90mm)

15 degrees, 91.7mm (91mm/89mm)

10 degrees, 94.1mm (94mm/90mm)

05 degrees, 96.7mm (94mm/91mm)

00 degrees, 99.5mm (96mm/94mm)


What was the point of disbanding the light tanks battalion after Kasserine pass, or the British fascination with getting 7,5cm/17pdr guns if the 37mm/2pdr were good enough? Why only build 25k of them and waste all that money on 40k Shermans with 75/76,2mm? When they (3,7mm) proved ineffective vs 6cm and 5cm armoured PIII's and IV's in Tunisia?

 

[Bastables]

Oh really? The Units?The Divsions?The maps? The Equipment of soldiers?

Yeah really, nothing at all.

This will be a 'not an argument' for you, but when it is so bad for you, don't buy it. It is like Battlefield 1 for me, it is for me a game, that wants to be over ww1, bot Looks from pace and weapons lke ww2.
In comparison SD 44 is a game, that delivers a specific Topic and (mostly) accurate Divisions, where the physics mechanics an some other gameplay aspects are simplified for the sake of accesibility and fun.

The "itsa game!" argument is specious when seeing FLX defending the choice with a comment on armour thickness "in RL".

 

[Baane]

Oh really? The Units?The Divsions?The maps? The Equipment of soldiers?

Yeah really, nothing at all.

The issue is that you can replace any of those with anything; none of it behaves anywhere near what you might expect them to, with any sort of historical context.

This will be a 'not an argument' for you, but when it is so bad for you, don't buy it.

I don't intend to, and I personally know about a dozen people from my gamer circle who won't either. It's too bad, because we were all excited for the game.

In comparison SD 44 is a game, that delivers a specific Topic

No, it doesn't.

and (mostly) accurate Divisions,

Really iffy, here. Their research is below cursory, at best.

where the physics mechanics an some other gameplay aspects are simplified for the sake of accesibility and fun.

I don't care about simplified mechanics. I do care about laziness, however.

 

[Baane]

What was the point of disbanding the light tanks battalion after Kasserine pass, or the British fascination with getting 7,5cm/17pdr guns if the 37mm/2pdr were good enough? Why only build 25k of them and waste all that money on 40k Shermans with 75/76,2mm? When they (3,7mm) proved ineffective vs 6cm and 5cm armoured PIII's and IV's in Tunisia?

Let's not forget the outcry from U.S. Infantry for 57-mm guns to replace their 37-mm antitank guns, even before the Panther was ever encountered.

Also, see attached:

 

[bwc153]

Yes, the Stuart can penetrate the panther ingame in situations that it could not in reality. Though, may I ask where the outcry is, by this same realism crowd, at Germans having just as many aircraft as allies or is their desire for realism only there when realism benefits them?

 

[Baane]

Yes, the Stuart can penetrate the panther ingame in situations that it could not in reality. Though, may I ask where the outcry is, by this same realism crowd, at Germans having just as many aircraft as allies or is their desire for realism only there when realism benefits them?

Nice try but I've spoken out about aircraft, as well. And will again, if there's a new thread about it.

Not that it matters: That's not the topic, here.

 

[bwc153]

Nice try but I've spoken out about aircraft, as well. And will again, if there's a new thread about it.

Not that it matters: That's not the topic, here.

Wasn't referring to you particularly, you seem pretty consistent in your desire for realism from the game.

 

[Nevins]

Wasn't referring to you particularly, you seem pretty consistent in your desire for realism from the game.

And I hope that he is pretty much ignored. Is the next complaint going to be not correctly modeling the unreliability of german engines and transmissions? Are certain bridges going to be uncrossable by certain tanks? The realism police can go to hell, Eugen should be giving a feeling of authenticity their best shot and compromising that when necessary in order to make a solid game that we can enjoy playing for the gameplay, not because you cite a document that shows that a tank doesn't have the correct number of weld lines