M5A1 vs Panter G

[Dunbal]

Besides, in 1944 the Wehrmacht was a very experienced Army, you can see this by the time that the alies needed to take France back, even with the German war machine destroyed.

I provided references for my statements. You could read some more. The SS were highly over-rated especially by the end of the war. However since Himmler was politically adept and perfectly willing to abuse his close relationship with Hitler, he had no problem obtaining the latest and best equipment for the army of his "parallel state". THAT is why the SS was marginally more effective than the Wehrmacht. Not because of experience, but because of better equipment. Which reinforces exactly what I said - new equipment was given to inexperienced troops for POLITICAL instead of military reasons.

The 12th SS you claim as a "great German division" was only formed in 1943, and first saw action the day after D-day in Normandy. So apparently you count a year's training as "experience" versus say several years fighting actual war on the Russian front.

The time it took for the allies to push the Western Front back into Germany was a strategic decision. Why should the West do the bleeding if the Russians could be made to do the heavy lifting? All the West had to do was keep up enough pressure to ensure Hitler couldn't win in the East. The Americans/Brits/French could have pushed much harder than they did, but if someone's going to die it might as well be the communists. The tempo of operations was only stepped up when it became clear that the Russians were going to reach Berlin first.

The ONLY time you saw desperate and penetrating attacks in the West after the initial breakout of Normandy was after the Battle of the Bulge, where Patton had to race to save Bastogne and the entire southern flank. The Americans were complacent, and it nearly cost them everything.

 

[1776ZOOMSNIPE1911]

Not really, given the Stuarts were often used as recon and supporting vehicles to troops IIRC, so i mean, they would be "on the front line firing" at stuff, I have had situations where my honeys have gotten very close to panthers, I didnt push the panthers, the panthers rolled into me, i didnt have the time to evacuate them out my town and so a bloodbath happened where my 4 25 pounders and 2 honeys blew the hell out of 6 panthers as they rolled into me(all kills were to the front due to the panthers turning fast), because they rolled down the centre road of a town into me after knocking out my 17 pounder defencive line.

Would you say said person, whom rolled into a town without fire support, without infantry support should just be given an "i win"? All he literally did was fast move at me the entire time then stop to fire when seeing targets, then get on the road again.

Theres a thing about games, they can be realistic for the most part, but if you go too on board with realism, you have just made the game boring and unrewarding for doing the right thing. For gameplay reasons I am fine with this, because you have to have a punishment for people who play badly as the Germans lol.



The light tank has to be within 400m to even have a semi chance of penning it iirc, I would call 1/3rd the panthers max range short distance

Panzer 4s aint that well armored in comparason tbf.

You are aware that in real life, the 37mm would have to be inside of the panther to get the shell inside the tank

 

[IS-2]

Not really, given the Stuarts were often used as recon and supporting vehicles to troops IIRC, so i mean, they would be "on the front line firing" at stuff, I have had situations where my honeys have gotten very close to panthers, I didnt push the panthers, the panthers rolled into me, i didnt have the time to evacuate them out my town and so a bloodbath happened where my 4 25 pounders and 2 honeys blew the hell out of 6 panthers as they rolled into me(all kills were to the front due to the panthers turning fast), because they rolled down the centre road of a town into me after knocking out my 17 pounder defencive line.

Would you say said person, whom rolled into a town without fire support, without infantry support should just be given an "i win"? All he literally did was fast move at me the entire time then stop to fire when seeing targets, then get on the road again.

Theres a thing about games, they can be realistic for the most part, but if you go too on board with realism, you have just made the game boring and unrewarding for doing the right thing. For gameplay reasons I am fine with this, because you have to have a punishment for people who play badly as the Germans lol.

XD

wtf kind of battles are u playing where people YOLO panthers into towns and why do u have 25 pounders in towns??? x'D why u have stuarts in the town????? :'D wtf

you know u can put guys into the buildings of a town? like a guy with a PIAT???

why the hell would you need stuarts (LOL) in particular to kill some scrub YOLOing into a town with PANTHERS lmao noob matches

 

[Slahinki]

If the round ricocheted off the turret and down into the hull (and incidentally the driver) it is quite possible for a 37mm to kill a panther

And that is a retardedly small part of the tank to hit, it's a 43x157cm target, and just becasue you hit it that's no guarantee that the shot will ricochet.

Spoiler

Oh my, a Panther hit amongst other places in the lower half of the rounded mantlet and it didn't spontaneously combust from a ricochet...

 

[Thonar]

1. The Waffen-SS Divisions being Elite: As stated here, they weren't even close and no, they weren't more "efficent". As a matter of fact they were pretty much looked down upon by the higher German Army staffs since Poland 1939. The only thing they expelled at was fanatism and a far more rigid recruitment process regarding physical fitness in the "classical" divisions. An SS-Soldier knew he wouldn't be taken prisoner and thus never wanted to become one, thus fighting to the last bullet, men, ... while at the same time granting no mercy due to a misguided ideal. Why do you think French-SS-Soldiers defended Berlin?
At the same time most leaders of the Waffen-SS were, simply put, unable. They never received a proper military education since the Junkerschulen based their teaching plan equally on ideology and military matters, with the big deal that these school were just founded in 1936(!) without getting proper trainer-personal into these schools from the German army (which wasn't wanted by the way).
The SS was nothing but a physically well trained bunch of fanatics lead by idiots trained by other idiots... becoming famous for massacres on PoWs and Civilians rather than combat-ability.

2. The Waffen-SS got better equipment: Maybe, probably not and since its size is smaller, it might be just more widespread. Nevertheless in Normandy the elphant in the room is the Panzer Lehr Division, a Wehrmacht unit.

 

[Neksidaa]

Yeah the armor fights seem a bit off - i get were early in the development cycle but when my Panzer IV H with vet magically takes more morale damage in a 1 v 1 against a M5 (with no vet) at 750m it just feels kinda off. Especially when the PZ4 takes like 4 direct hits to kill the said M5 afterwards.

I do like the how the tank battles and the new vehicle hp system works (when it works) when the fights take longer and sometimes turn into slug fests where tanks are pounding each other (i think i had a panther G take like 30 hits to its front armor and not die).

Yes armor shouldn't be an instant attack move and iWin button but the balance is really off at the moment when phase A units with high availability are taking Phase B units with much lower availability and higher cost head on in fights. Like most of the tanks and even lighter vehicles with +30 mm guns all have the exact same 1000m range which feels weird, i'd either lower the range or the penetration power drop off greatly for smaller caliber tank guns or just give the higher caliber guns more range.

It's still hard to evaluate some of the balance issues when were missing alot of units and whole doctrines from the game though.

 

[IS-2]

Questioning people's agendas without proof is pretty rude. If I was into that I'd question yours after you had your giant rant about how everything the allies had was crap, their soldiers were crap, and they only beat the almighty elite reich in battle because of spam, like a 15 year old wehraboo coming off an episode of Weaponology: Waffen-SS. Works both way, buddy boy.

lmao. why am i supposed to care if someone "questions my agenda"?

and lol i remember that thread where I dropped facts on people complaining about 76mm sherman availability when it was more than 10x less numerous than panthers in normandy irl. people were quoting archive awareness (XD) while i was proving to people how much a 76mm penned because they thought it could phase through a panther, then fact bombing someone who thought panthers broke down every 150km outside of ausf. D variant, then dropping the ultimate factbomb trevor dupuys study which an apologist tried to discredit and then got nuked by _Sev_ who then carpet bombed more facts on the 8 - 1 loss ratio of Panthers against shermans in the battle of the bulge. that last post was legendary. a great thread.

also look at what you wrote and then look at the game.... just saying lol.

 

[Dunbal]

It's still hard to evaluate some of the balance issues when were missing alot of units and whole doctrines from the game though.

If the devs were evil they could simulate reality by giving us amazing armor for Tiger II's and Panther G's but not allowing them to move through lack of fuel or gearbox breakdowns. Also, you have THREE rounds per tank. Make them count

The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away...

 

[Vulcan 607]

And that is a retardedly small part of the tank to hit, it's a 43x157cm target, and just becasue you hit it that's no guarantee that the shot will ricochet.

Spoiler

Oh my, a Panther hit amongst other places in the lower half of the rounded mantlet and it didn't spontaneously combust from a ricochet...

It was a common tactic smart arse I will also add most hits on a tank take place on the turret and it did happen. You will also know German tank armour was highly variable in quality so that can be another reason and finely its a game which is probably the biggest reason of all.

So stop trying to be sarcastic because its not working its making you look like one of those tools on the COH forum

 

[Baane]

i get were early in the development cycle

lol

 

[ycebotz10]

I would agree with it being kind of silly and inaccurate that Stuart can penetrate Panther at any range from the front.Let's keep in mind that this is still testing phase and we are here to give feedback but in my opinion if they already put so much effort into researching about historically accurate Divisions,units,maps etc, that it would be kind of a shame not to have "balanced" armor mechanics at least similar to real life...

 

[Steeperman]

"balanced" armor mechanics at least similar to real life...

But what should "similar to real life" be, when the max range of guns is 1200m and all of a tanks front has the same armor value?
I know there are some issues with balancing and knowing how long it took for Wargame, the final Balance will not be out at release, but to have ballistic and armor physics realistic, you would have to change the whole mechanic, like it is implemented now. To have those is simply not in the scope of the game and thus pretty much simplified.

I would suggest for the Stuart, to lower the AP value, as 8 AP is a bit high in comparison to the M4s Standard 75mm Canon with 11 AP value and thge 76mm with 13 AP.

 

[Ulatersk]

37 mm penetrating a Panther frontally?

Game is off to a great start....

 

[mitchverr]

You are aware that in real life, the 37mm would have to be inside of the panther to get the shell inside the tank

And that has what to do with the price of fish? This is a game still first and foremost. Literally not an argument against what I said.

XD

wtf kind of battles are u playing where people YOLO panthers into towns and why do u have 25 pounders in towns??? x'D why u have stuarts in the town????? :'D wtf

you know u can put guys into the buildings of a town? like a guy with a PIAT???

why the hell would you need stuarts (LOL) in particular to kill some scrub YOLOing into a town with PANTHERS lmao noob matches

Alot of people seem to like to leave panthers either in the middle of fields or yolo down roads so far.

As for why my things were there, I just crushed 2 players (was a 10v10 that instance) and had very little holding forces left, so was in the middle of consolidation on the forward edge of the area, i had the guns close in because simply, I was using them to keep the same 2 players at arms length from me and it was working, I only just had enough points to set up a tiny front line, I didnt have points for close in units like PIAT teams yet, minimal infantry too, I was using points on getting planes due to being bombed a couple times (love spits). So suddenly when a 3rd player yolo rushed me with panthers I was in for a bit of a shock. I was trying to withdraw my guns which were on the edge of the town slightly in it due to as i said a lack of forward line and had my honeys rushing into an interception location for those panthers because I literally had nothing else as it had all died.

So TL DR
25 pounders next to/slightly in the town for protection. Limited forces holding far side of town.
Honeys in the area due to being to weak to sit on front (already had them for taking the town anyway fighting halftracks so kept reserve) and rushed to protect the artillery and slow the panthers a few seconds.

edit: i mean hell, honeys perfect place is town knife fighting, you literally even the odds vs enemy tanks doing it.

 

[Ulatersk]

And that has what to do with the price of fish? This is a game still first and foremost. Literally not an argument against what I said.

Literally the only argument.

Its predictability of the system that makes the game truly competitive.

And I seem to remember that Stuart is a light tank, not a tank destroyer.

 

[mitchverr]

Literally the only argument.

Its predictability of the system that makes the game truly competitive.

And I seem to remember that Stuart is a light tank, not a tank destroyer.

And the system is predictive, +1 AP per 100m closer to target. Not everyone knows the "real life" ability of every single gun, they do get AP 10 at 1km is AP 15 at 500m, which against an AV 15 vehicle is something like 8% pen or so. And as a light tank, it has to be pretty much point blank range to have a good possibility of knocking out a panther.

 

[Souroy]

Couldn't some kind of "Max. Penetration" mechanism be added?

As for example with the 37mm:
It has 8 AP at 1000m, the maximum range.
Let's give it a "Max. Penetration" value of 10 (arbitrary number for the example)
The Stuart would then attain its maximum penetration at 800m and retain this 10 AP value for the "0~800m" range.

This way closing in would still be interesting but you'll also avoid some guns getting unrealistic AP values at close range (like the 35R(f) frontally penning Churchill and Sherman).
However that's would leave hundred of meters where the guns stats magically don't evolve, which is quite unrealistic and counter-intuitive.

Another way would be to change the AP value increment (for example +0.5/100m instead of +1/100m) so the increase would be smoother while still limiting the maximum AP value to more reasonable levels. Though it would be even more counter-intuitive and quite hard to integrate as everything is done with round numbers.

 

[mitchverr]

That would completely destroy Allied tanks in the game though lol(given most tanks in the german lists seen so far are AV 12+ while the allied guns are AP 10-11 mostly while germans have much better guns and allies worse armor), the only tank with semi decency would be 17 pounder armed. As people would say "universal rules", as is their only way to be semi decent is getting to 600m range minimum, beyond that the odds are serverely against them.

I honestly dont see the problem with it as is from a gameplay point of view.

 

[Slahinki]

Couldn't some kind of "Max. Penetration" mechanism be added?

As for example with the 37mm:
It has 8 AP at 1000m, the maximum range.
Let's give it a "Max. Penetration" value of 10 (arbitrary number for the example)
The Stuart would then attain its maximum penetration at 800m and retain this 10 AP value for the "0~800m" range.

This way closing in would still be interesting but you'll also avoid some guns getting unrealistic AP values at close range (like the 35R(f) frontally penning Churchill and Sherman).
However that's would leave hundred of meters where the guns stats magically don't evolve, which is quite unrealistic and counter-intuitive.

Another way would be to change the AP value increment (for example +0.5/100m instead of +1/100m) so the increase would be smoother while still limiting the maximum AP value to more reasonable levels. Though it would be even more counter-intuitive and quite hard to integrate as everything is done with round numbers.

Or you could measure AP value at 100 meters and drop it off as range increases, so the Stuart gets 8 AP at 100 meters and then it drops off by 1 or .5 or whatever every 100 meters.

 

[Souroy]

Or you could measure AP value at 100 meters and drop it off as range increases, so the Stuart gets 8 AP at 100 meters and then it drops off by 1 or .5 or whatever every 100 meters.

It would effectively be a great way to do it, maybe even adding a small AP value/Range scale a la Theatre Of War in the unit card for a quick, easy to read, reference