M5A1 vs Panter G

[mitchverr]

This is a literal "learn to play" issue, if you let enemy tanks get THAT CLOSE, then its on you, even at 400m the M5 has a what, 8% chance to pen the panther? I mean for it to be "certain" it has to be at point blank range....

If you are letting them get this close, you are at fault or your opponent is a Creed type, either way learn to use recon more and that you cant just "i win" with panthers. No there is nothing wrong with them, they are great tanks in the game, just use your massive advantage at range, you literally have a significant advantage and chance to 1 shot all but like, 2 allied tanks at 1200m, lol.

The fact people seem to be asking for an "i win" button saddens me to be honest.

 

[Wimpola]

If this game will be like other Wargames, then it is based off of HP not armor penetration. Not penetrating a tank will do only a little bit of damage but a full penetration will disable the tank. For example in Eargame Red Dragon one of the strategies is fill you deck with T-34's and send them off against Leopards and Abrams and destroy them all because of the cheap T-34's and large numbers of them even though irl they wouldn't even scratch the modern day tanks.

 

[lothlann]

I have an M3a1 kill 2 panthers and 3 panzer IJ one shotting each ammo explosion, seems so far not impressed with the game, us 60 cal are killing all my halftracks and my 30mm cannons on the half tracks can't do anything to them. The best part was when my SS infantry surrendered, i started to laugh, SS doesn't surrender not during normandy.

if you like americans your in luck, they are basically invincible, i'd had 3 pak 38s all shooting at a m5 and it just took them out one by one... bounce, bounce, bounce... bs, bs, bs.


I like both paradox and eugen systems, so hopefully they fix this.

 

[IS-2]

not physically possible IRL, shouldn't be in game IMO. I don't mind it really since it's part of WG's flavour but MAN they need to step up the armour and pen mechanics.

 

[Killertomato]

This reminds me of KPVT vs. tanks in ALB- AP scaling meant that you could kill an M1A2 with a 14.5mm MG if it was close enough.

I don't think you should be able to kill a Panther with a 37mm gun from the front.

 

[Dunbal]

The panzer IV seens to be tripulated by non trained soldiers,

This is actually quite historically accurate. In fact Speer describes in his memoirs the first trials of the new Tigers, that were given to crews so green they promptly sank them and got them stuck in a marsh within a few minutes. Hans von Luck also gives examples of green crews losing brand new Panther G's in the first moments of an engagement to rookie mistakes. Apparently if you lost your tank you were deemed "inferior" and the newest equipment went to green troops instead of to veteran crews. It's a shining example of how party mentality often got in the way of military common sense.

I guess it's up to the devs though to correct this "bug", if it is indeed a bug, and if it gets in the way of FUN - which is what a game is supposed to be about.

 

[Tankhunter__]

I just got several Panzer 4 and Panther destroyed by M5s with just one hit. That is ridiculous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3#Combat_service

Any tank in-game is killed by one penetrating hit.

If this game will be like other Wargames, then it is based off of HP not armor penetration. Not penetrating a tank will do only a little bit of damage but a full penetration will disable the tank. For example in Eargame Red Dragon one of the strategies is fill you deck with T-34's and send them off against Leopards and Abrams and destroy them all because of the cheap T-34's and large numbers of them even though irl they wouldn't even scratch the modern day tanks.

The game doesn't work like Wargame. One penetration = kill. Other factors can mission kill tanks and they can be forced to bail out or surrender(morale kill)

This reminds me of KPVT vs. tanks in ALB- AP scaling meant that you could kill an M1A2 with a 14.5mm MG if it was close enough.

I don't think you should be able to kill a Panther with a 37mm gun from the front.

AP scaling is generally fine, but it is quite silly in this case. The Stuart should be able to kill the Panther from the side below 500m, but never from the front(if it can't be like that in-game, make it have to close to like 200m or smthng and only score kills by forcing crew to bail or otherwise mission killing the Panther)

 

[GSTAVO]

This is actually quite historically accurate. In fact Speer describes in his memoirs the first trials of the new Tigers, that were given to crews so green they promptly sank them and got them stuck in a marsh within a few minutes. Hans von Luck also gives examples of green crews losing brand new Panther G's in the first moments of an engagement to rookie mistakes. Apparently if you lost your tank you were deemed "inferior" and the newest equipment went to green troops instead of to veteran crews. It's a shining example of how party mentality often got in the way of military common sense.

I guess it's up to the devs though to correct this "bug", if it is indeed a bug, and if it gets in the way of FUN - which is what a game is supposed to be about.

That's not true, not in unit used in the game, the panzer IV are operational since the beginning of war, so the Panther example not apply in this case. The division used in this beta is the 12th SS Panzer Division, one of the great german divisions. Besides, in 1944 the Wehrmacht was a very experienced Army, you can see this by the time that the alies needed to take France back, even with the German war machine destroyed.

 

[Tankhunter__]

That's not true, not in unit used in the game, the panzer IV are operational since the beginning of war, so the Panther example not apply in this case. The division used in this beta is the 12th SS Panzer Division, one of the great german divisions. Besides, in 1944 the Wehrmacht was a very experienced Army, you can see this by the time that the alies needed to take France back, even with the German war machine destroyed.

12th SS was inexperienced at the onset of Normandy. It later proved to be great during the fighting, much like the 15th Scots who were inexperienced but turned out to be one of the most effective divisions the UK. And calling the Wehrmacht a very experienced army is a very wide generalization. You have very experienced formations like Panzer Lehr, but also have plenty of green formations such as Static Divisions manned by boys + forcibly conscripted east-front "volunteers" and POWs and 91. Luftlande(A Wehrmacht infantry division with some attached Fallschirmjaegers from 6FJR, not a true FJ division) which was absolutely annihilated before the end of June.

 

[Sharkey Ward]

Besides, in 1944 the Wehrmacht was a very experienced Army, you can see this by the time that the alies needed to take France back, even with the German war machine destroyed.

By 1944 the german army was a husk of its former self, it completely drained its experienced troops in the eastern front and by 1944 the majority of its troops were extremely inexperienced compared to its 1941 counterparts.

 

[Strosstruppen]

I can see if the stuart is next you as its a videogame afterall. I think a scout car destroyed a tiger 2 during bastogne if I recall.

This should be fine. But the way people quote history in these forums would not always make for a great videogame.

 

[Graphic]

This reminds me of KPVT vs. tanks in ALB- AP scaling meant that you could kill an M1A2 with a 14.5mm MG if it was close enough.

I don't think you should be able to kill a Panther with a 37mm gun from the front.

There are some important differences imo.

In Wargame the KPTVs cost 1/20 of a heavy MBT, drive at 100mph off road, you had dozens of them, and they fired with near 100% accuracy at point blank even with shattered morale.

In SD the Stuart costs ~1/3 of a Panther, it drives fast comparative to other SD tanks but still excruciatingly slow if you're caught in the open, you realistically have 5-10 at most (and having 10 means you're crippling yourself later), and they can be suppressed/pinned/turned back if you attempt to rush with them.

In other words It's not a spam rushing unit like KPVT transports. I know with 95% certainty without seeing a replay that the Stuart that killed his Panther executed an ambush at close range because he failed to recon the area and failed to secure his flanks, thus recklessly exposing his Panther, which he then paid the price for. Given the mechanics of the game, any time a Panther dies to a Stuart it must be a case of PEBKAC and not cheese tactics.

 

[Vulcan 607]

Nope, the Stuart under no circumstances could penetrate the Panther frontally. That's just silly.

Spoiler

Spoiler

If the round ricocheted off the turret and down into the hull (and incidentally the driver) it is quite possible for a 37mm to kill a panther

 

[IS-2]

This is a literal "learn to play" issue, if you let enemy tanks get THAT CLOSE, then its on you, even at 400m the M5 has a what, 8% chance to pen the panther? I mean for it to be "certain" it has to be at point blank range....

If you are letting them get this close, you are at fault or your opponent is a Creed type, either way learn to use recon more and that you cant just "i win" with panthers. No there is nothing wrong with them, they are great tanks in the game, just use your massive advantage at range, you literally have a significant advantage and chance to 1 shot all but like, 2 allied tanks at 1200m, lol.

The fact people seem to be asking for an "i win" button saddens me to be honest.

realistic strategy game

unit A is capable of doing something not even remotely possible in real life to unit B

l2p issue because... oh i know why. someone has an agenda

 

[xFoXReaper]

I honestly prefer penetration mechanics like this. Yes, it can lead to awkward circumstances like getting one-shotted by a light tank at close range but if you are using a Panther or any expensive unit you can't just push like madman. Because tanks can no longer move through forests, roads are easy to ambush. You just have to use infantry and scouts to prepare the ground for your elite units. If you get one-shotted by a Stuart with a Panther you were most likely too careless.

 

[mitchverr]

If this game will be like other Wargames, then it is based off of HP not armor penetration. Not penetrating a tank will do only a little bit of damage but a full penetration will disable the tank. For example in Eargame Red Dragon one of the strategies is fill you deck with T-34's and send them off against Leopards and Abrams and destroy them all because of the cheap T-34's and large numbers of them even though irl they wouldn't even scratch the modern day tanks.

This is not how it works ingame. Leave wargame stuff at the door, your in WW2 son. The way it works is using 2d6 dice iirc with a variable number attached depending on experience and whatever eugen put on the vehicles for armor pen and accuracy. If you roll well, you pen and kill a tank outright, if you roll badly you bounce or possibly cause other forms of damage.

realistic strategy game

unit A is capable of doing something not even remotely possible in real life to unit B

l2p issue because... oh i know why. someone has an agenda

L2P issue because literally gimping units isnt fun, and people seem to not want to learn how the game actually works and would rather complain and demand i win buttons. No agenda here mate, I just personally preff people get punished for silly mistakes and people whom are using strong tactics be rewarded, if you could never kill to the front with the stuart vs panthers, that would negate any kind of tactical usage of the vehicles simply because how quickly tanks react to being flanked.

Again, the chance to pen the panther reasonably requires a point blank hit, I personally dont care if it wasnt possible irl, if you let the panther get like that, your issue lol. Panthers at max range have a iirc higher than 50% chance to outright kill any allied tank in the game apart from churchill MK VII command/AVRE/croc and the jumbo, but can still outright kill the churchills on a 30% or so IIRC, literally the only way to even odds is to go close to point blank range.

 

[IS-2]

This is not how it works ingame. Leave wargame stuff at the door, your in WW2 son. The way it works is using 2d6 dice iirc with a variable number attached depending on experience and whatever eugen put on the vehicles for armor pen and accuracy. If you roll well, you pen and kill a tank outright, if you roll badly you bounce or possibly cause other forms of damage.




L2P issue because literally gimping units isnt fun, and people seem to not want to learn how the game actually works and would rather complain and demand i win buttons. No agenda here mate, I just personally preff people get punished for silly mistakes and people whom are using strong tactics be rewarded, if you could never kill to the front with the stuart vs panthers, that would negate any kind of tactical usage of the vehicles simply because how quickly tanks react to being flanked.

Again, the chance to pen the panther reasonably requires a point blank hit, I personally dont care if it wasnt possible irl, if you let the panther get like that, your issue lol. Panthers at max range have a iirc higher than 50% chance to outright kill any allied tank in the game apart from churchill MK VII command/AVRE/croc and the jumbo, but can still outright kill the churchills on a 30% or so IIRC, literally the only way to even odds is to go close to point blank range.

The issue is that the game has a focus on realism and the fact of the matter is the Stuart cannot EVER pen the front of a Panther under any circumstance IRL, but it can in game. The wrong tactic would be sending a Stuart towards the front of a Panther in the first place because it a tank with 50mm of armor and a 37mm gun. It's the rough equivalent of BTR-60PB blasting M60s frontally cheese of ALB.

 

[xFoXReaper]

The issue is that the game has a focus on realism and the fact of the matter is the Stuart cannot EVER pen the front of a Panther under any circumstance IRL, but it can in game. The wrong tactic would be sending a Stuart towards the front of a Panther in the first place because it a tank with 50mm of armor and a 37mm gun. It's the rough equivalent of BTR-60PB blasting M60s frontally cheese of ALB.

It's very difficult to draw a line between realism and gameplay. If you want full on realism then once the US army stumbles across anything better than a Pz. IV they will call artillery until the position looks like the surface of the moon. I know it sounds ridiculous, a Stuart killing a Panther, but then this game will be all about rushing the biggest and fattest tank and win the game. There has to be a way to punish mistakes, otherwise there is no skill improvement.

 

[Kaiserfront]

Apparently I want an "I win - button" if I dislike an american light tank penetrating and destroying several Panzer IV and Panther from the front over a great distance.

 

[mitchverr]

The issue is that the game has a focus on realism and the fact of the matter is the Stuart cannot EVER pen the front of a Panther under any circumstance IRL, but it can in game. The wrong tactic would be sending a Stuart towards the front of a Panther in the first place because it a tank with 50mm of armor and a 37mm gun. It's the rough equivalent of BTR-60PB blasting M60s frontally cheese of ALB.

Not really, given the Stuarts were often used as recon and supporting vehicles to troops IIRC, so i mean, they would be "on the front line firing" at stuff, I have had situations where my honeys have gotten very close to panthers, I didnt push the panthers, the panthers rolled into me, i didnt have the time to evacuate them out my town and so a bloodbath happened where my 4 25 pounders and 2 honeys blew the hell out of 6 panthers as they rolled into me(all kills were to the front due to the panthers turning fast), because they rolled down the centre road of a town into me after knocking out my 17 pounder defencive line.

Would you say said person, whom rolled into a town without fire support, without infantry support should just be given an "i win"? All he literally did was fast move at me the entire time then stop to fire when seeing targets, then get on the road again.

Theres a thing about games, they can be realistic for the most part, but if you go too on board with realism, you have just made the game boring and unrewarding for doing the right thing. For gameplay reasons I am fine with this, because you have to have a punishment for people who play badly as the Germans lol.

Apparently I want an "I win - button" if I dislike an american light tank penetrating and destroying several Panzer IV and Panther from the front over a great distance.

The light tank has to be within 400m to even have a semi chance of penning it iirc, I would call 1/3rd the panthers max range short distance

Panzer 4s aint that well armored in comparason tbf.