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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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Numahr

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Indian Religious Structure and Holy Sites

OK anyone who has been in India knows that a map of Indian Holy Places would have as high a red star density as the degree of pilosity of Zarathustra's bear... But more modestly, please find below the location of suggested official LI Holy Sites for Indian faiths.


Edited on 27 July 2015 to add a Vithoban Holy Site
 
Last edited:

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Buddhist Religious Structure and Holy Sites

Very interesting developments in for Buddhist religions... I think this is a beautiful map.

One note on Buddha-Mazdan (Persian-influanced Buddhism) HS, especially for Ecnahc (I can't document all my toughts and rationale for all HS but here's one...). I think the Holy Sites / reform system make interesting and progressive gameplay, especially as your list of HS updates upon reform...

You start as a king of a small realm in India, covering more or less today's Rajahstan. You already own one Holy Site in picturesque and legendary Pushkar, your historical temple so to say. So your first goal, short of WC, will be to unite India, like every one there. Or at least Northern India, which is enough to unite Buddhist Holy Sites - you can leave Southern India to Pesky Hindus. Once this is done, you think you have achieved what Buddha had sent you to this world for and you reform. And then... all of a sudden your very own Pushkar is no longer a Holy Site, but far away Âdur Burzen-Mehr is, one of the three Great Zoroastrian Fire Altars :eek: Yes, indeed. By reforming you raised the stakes: you are not a provincial power any more, but you claim status of spiritual grand power, rival to the greatest empires! So now it is not enough to claim, prove it by teaching Sassanid priets the message of peace of Buddha-Mazda!

If you look carefully at this and other maps, you can find many such potential narratives. The most striking ones are those few that change Holy Site groups upon reform. As a result, generally 4 of their Holy Sites change location. Buda Tanrili is an example: if they ever reform Datsanist, they will have to review totally their geography and engage in ambitious conquests fast. Otherwise, Morale Authority will plummet and the "old ways" (now a heresy) will fight back against the reform... ;)

 
Last edited:

richvh

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You misspelled Ohrushana (or it's misspelled in localization)
 

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Indian rechecked (noticed some extra holy sites when validating Buddhist) and Buddhist complete. Status:

--- Error 1 of 16 ---
The religion amun has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 2 of 16 ---
The religion amun_reformed has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 3 of 16 ---
The religion aten has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 4 of 16 ---
The religion aten_reformed has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 5 of 16 ---
The religion confucian has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 6 of 16 ---
The religion horus_re has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 7 of 16 ---
The religion indoh_confucian has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 8 of 16 ---
The religion isis has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 9 of 16 ---
The religion isis_reformed has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 10 of 16 ---
The religion jud_zion has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 11 of 16 ---
The religion lubu has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 12 of 16 ---
The religion lubu_reformed has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 13 of 16 ---
The religion set has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 14 of 16 ---
The religion set_reformed has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 15 of 16 ---
The religion tao has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 16 of 16 ---
The religion tao_reformed has 4 holy sites, not 5.

Just noticed jud_zion on the list. Are they getting a different group of holy sites than the main Judaic religions?
 

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First event for becoming Arinniti's Consort/Arinniti in Flesh chain:
Code:
narrative_event = {
	id = seek_arinnitis_favor.1
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_favor.1
	desc = EVTDESCarinnitis_favor.1
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_graecoroman_group	#Or maybe GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	trigger = {
		has_ambition = obj_become_arinnitis_consort
		NOT = {
			has_character_flag = seeking_arinnitis_favor
		}
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_favor.1
		set_character_flag = seeking_arinnitis_favor
		job_spiritual = {
			character_event = {
				id = seek_arinnitis_favor.3
				days = 7
				random = 3
			}
		}
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTBarinnitis_favor.2
		set_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
		cancel_ambition = obj_become_arinnitis_consort
	}
}
narrative_event = {
	id = seek_arinnitis_favor.2
	title = EVTNAMEarinnitis_favor.1
	desc = EVTDESCarinnitis_favor.2
	picture = GFX_evt_bishop_graecoroman_group	#Or maybe GFX_evt_bishop_zoroastrian_group
	
	trigger = {
		has_ambition = obj_become_arinnitis_consort
		NOT = {
			has_character_flag = seeking_arinnitis_favor
		}
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTAarinnitis_favor.1
		set_character_flag = seeking_arinnitis_favor
		job_spiritual = {
			character_event = {
				id = seek_arinnitis_favor.3
				days = 7
				random = 3
			}
		}
	}
	
	option = {
		name = EVTOPTBarinnitis_favor.1
		set_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti
		cancel_ambition = obj_become_arinnitis_consort
	}
}
Code:
EVTDESCarinnitis_favor.1;Since deciding to seek to become Arinniti's consort, like Emperor Leo III of the Romans, you had been wondering how to go about it. This morning, you woke from a sleep troubled by a dream of a bright light limning a woman. She seemed to be telling you something... but what?;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTAarinnitis_favor.1;I must consult my [Root.GetLordSpiritualName] to interpret this dream!;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTBarinnitis_favor.1;This is but a pipedream...;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTDESCarinnitis_favor.2;Since deciding to seek to become Arinniti in Flesh, like Empress Irene of the Romans, you had been wondering how to go about it. This morning, you woke from a sleep troubled by a dream of a bright light limning a woman. She seemed to be telling you something... but what?;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
 

Numahr

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On the Arinniti event: is starting to build up, the dream thing is nice... Reminds how Scipio Africanus created a spiritual aura around him, he was a good dream propagandist. Note that Scipio never told the dreams himself, he made it so that others would tell these dreams, and remain evasive about them (of course Scipio's dream tellers would have got the line from someone right? ;) ) Really Scipio, a bit under Hannibal's shadow today, is a great example on this issue.

In our case, the ruler wants to have the Court Chaplain and the whole Church do the same, if he/she chooses option A. Tell every one that Arinniti appeared to him/her in dream, and that is shows the favour. So the point is really, at the end, to succeed in mobilizing the clergy for your propaganda efforts. But of course, the discussion with your court chaplain will be more subtle, and the flavor text should just hint at the propaganda manipulation aspect...

Concretely, to go in this direction, I suggest tweaking the following:
Code:
EVTOPTAarinnitis_favor.1;I must consult my [Root.GetLordSpiritualName] to interpret this dream[COLOR="#FFA500"]. Surely [Root.GetLordSpiritualName] will agree that this is the divine sign we were expecting, Arinniti is calling for me![/COLOR];;;;;;;;;;;;;x
This way the player understands his character is not so innocent and naïve...

And then, because every thing comes with a price, since you offer a choice to finish the thing here, I would say that in case the court chaplain is not convinced, there should be a relationship malus in the mutual relationship: court chaplain angry that the ruler made blasphemy, and obviously the ruler frustrated that the court chaplain did not follow him.

Last comment: so I assume that the triggers for the ambition will be:
- have the Chatousa temple built (by anyone);
- own Chatousa;
- and of course be luwian_group religion.
 

richvh

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Your suggested change is much too long for option text, which must fit on one line. Any overflow will be cut off and impossible to read.

Code:
EVTDESCarinnitis_favor.1;Since deciding to seek to become Arinniti's consort, like Emperor Leo III of the Romans, you had been wondering how to go about it. This morning, you woke from a sleep troubled by a dream of a bright light limning a woman. She seemed to be telling you something... but what? Surely [Root.GetLordSpiritualName] [Root.job_spiritual.GetName] will agree that this is a sign of Her divine favor, and that She will accept me as Her consort!;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTAarinnitis_favor.1;I must consult my [Root.GetLordSpiritualName]!;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTOPTBarinnitis_favor.1;This is but a pipedream...;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
EVTDESCarinnitis_favor.2;Since deciding to seek to become Arinniti in Flesh, like Empress Irene of the Romans, you had been wondering how to go about it. This morning, you woke from a sleep troubled by a dream of a bright light limning a woman. She seemed to be telling you something... but what? Surely [Root.GetLordSpiritualName] [Root.job_spiritual.GetName] will agree that this is a sign of Her divine favor, and that She will accept me as Her vessel!;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
Current state of the ambition:
Code:
	become_arinnitis_consort = {
		is_high_prio = yes
		potential = {
			is_ruler = yes
			is_adult = yes
			is_female = no
			religion_group = luwian_group
			has_global_flag = chattousa_rebuilt
			capital_scope = {
				has_province_modifier = chattousa_temple
			}
			NOT = { has_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti }
			NOT = { has_character_flag = seeking_arinnitis_favor }
		}
		allow = {
			piety = 1000
		}
		success = {
			trait = arinnits_consort
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 0
		}
	}
	become_arinniti_in_flesh = {
		is_high_prio = yes
		potential = {
			is_ruler = yes
			is_adult = yes
			is_female = no
			religion_group = luwian_group
			has_global_flag = chattousa_rebuilt
			capital_scope = {
				has_province_modifier = chattousa_temple
			}
			NOT = { has_character_flag = rejected_by_arinniti }
			NOT = { has_character_flag = seeking_arinnitis_favor }
		}
		allow = {
			piety = 1000
		}
		success = {
			trait = arinniti_in_flesh
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 0
		}
	}
}
Code:
obj_become_arinnitis_consort;Become Arinniti's Consort;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
obj_become_arinnitis_consort_desc;Seek to obtain information on how best to curry the Sun Goddess Arinniti's favor, and ultimately become her consort.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
obj_become_arinniti_in_flesh;Become Arinniti in Flesh;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
obj_become_arinniti_in_flesh_desc;Seek to obtain information on how best to curry the Sun Goddess Arinniti's favor, and ultimately become her avatar on earth.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
 

Numahr

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Sounds perfect. Oh I hope one day someone gets to play a Female Luwian ruler to become Arinniti's "avatar"! Then we should add a immortal = yes to that trait ;)
BTW we should check how Luwian faith stands in terms of gender laws.

Edit: on a second read I feel there is inconsistency between "you" and "I" in the event's description.
 

richvh

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I tend to put "you" in event text (this is the situation) and "I" in option text (this is your reaction.)
 

richvh

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First draft of the Lord Spiritual's reaction to the dream. No flavor text, as this event won't be seen, the flavor text will be in the liege's events.
Code:
#Lord Spiritual reacts to liege's dream
character_event = {
	seek_arinnitis_favor.3
	hide_window = yes
	
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	option = {		#Discourage liege
		ai_chance = {
			factor = 50
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = 40
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = 30
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = 20
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = 10
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = 0
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -10
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -20
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -30
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -40
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -50
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -60
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -70
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -80
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				NOT = {
					opinion = {
						who = FROM
						value = -90
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						trait = detached_priest
						trait = martial_cleric
						trait = scholarly_theologian
						trait = mastermind_theologian
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = cynical
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = chaste
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = temperate
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = cheap
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = greedy
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = slothful
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = shy
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = weak
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = humble
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						piety = 2500
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						piety = 2000
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						piety = 1500
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						piety = 1000
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						piety = 500
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						prestige = 1000
					}
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					NOT = {
						piety = 500
					}
				}
			}
		}
		
		FROM = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					is_female = no
				}
				narrative_event = seek_arinnitis_favor.4
			}
			if = {
				limit = {
					is_female = yes
				}
				narrative_event = seek_arinnitis_favor.5
			}
		}
	}
	option = {		#Encourage liege
		ai_chance = {
			factor = 50
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				opinion = {
					who = FROM
					value = 50
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				opinion = {
					who = FROM
					value = 60
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				opinion = {
					who = FROM
					value = 70
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				opinion = {
					who = FROM
					value = 80
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				opinion = {
					who = FROM
					value = 90
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = martial_cleric
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.25
				FROM = {
					trait = scholarly_theologian
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.5
				FROM = {
					trait = mastermind_theologian
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = zealous
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = scholar
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = lustful
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = gluttonous
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = charitable
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = diligent
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = gregarious
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = strong
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					trait = proud
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					piety = 3000
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					piety = 4000
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					piety = 5000
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					piety = 6000
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					piety = 7000
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					prestige = 2000
				}
			}
			modifier = {
				factor = 1.1
				FROM = {
					prestige = 3000
				}
			}
		}
		FROM = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					is_female = no
				}
				narrative_event = {
					id = seek_arinnitis_favor.6
				}
			}
			if = {
				limit = {
					is_female = yes
				}
				narrative_event = {
					id = seek_arinnitis_favor.7
				}
			}
		}
	}
}
 

Numahr

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Looks good!

A few suggestions:

- Maybe we could hint at these factors to the player, so that he gets an understanding.

- It should not be immediate. True, the event models this as one discussion; but in fact it involves mobilizing the whole clergy, which the lord spiritual only symbolizes.

- So maybe a first event would give a neutral feedback to the player ("The Lord Spiritual has promised he would analyze the hidden meaning of your dream, questioning arcane signs from the Sky and gathering opinions from the wisest Priests. The work ahead of him may take some time before he can deliver a clear answer. Your virtues in view of Arinniti will doubtless influence his conclusions: [list of factors]." -> Only 1 Option: "It is not too late to perfect my standing in Arinniti's eyes!") -> yes, it is a direct call to bribe your Lord Spiritual, which is the most immediate way to lower the MTTH -> yes, perfectly assumed (I work as a finance officer for a reason ;) ) :eek:o

- Then this event would give the Lord Spiritual a character flag, which could trigger either the good or the bad event, each with its own MTTH. When one event happens, it removes the flag so that the other event never happens.

- This way the player has a window of opportunity to work on the parameters, without knowing exactly what will happen and when...

- The base MTTH for both events should not be too long, maybe 1 month.

- Finally, the female version could have lustful removed, not sure that is what Arinniti is supposed to be :D, and maybe add chaste actually as any pre-modern society (even up to day maybe...), will look at a chaste woman in higher esteem for political responsibilities than a "lustful" one.
 

Numahr

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Confucian Religious Structure and Holy Sites

More HSs could be in China; but we need to keep HSs on the map to allow the quest for refor; for Daojiao and Fengxian.

The Tarim Basin has become the exile of Confucian refugees, as well as some valleys of Tibet. If they unite both areas under their religious guidance, both lowlands and the high peaks, they will have restored the balance.

 
Last edited:

richvh

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You've got the wrong name for reformed Fengxian (tag lubu); Linji is bud_zen_reformed, lubu_reformed is Lushèngdìjun Chóngbài.

Confucian done. Is having holy sites off-map going to cause problems? I thought missing holy sites caused crashes with 2.1.6 when opening the religion tab, or is that only if you're missing all holy sites?
 

Numahr

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Ancient Egyptian Religious Structure and Holy Sites

And here is the final group of Holy Sites! Nothing really surprising, almost all HS on the shores of the Nile, what else to expect?


I am curious to see the result of the validator after that... there should be 1 or 2 glitches for after sales service ;)
 

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Is the Memphis holy site in b_bilbays in c_manupura, or in b_memphis in c_cairo?
 

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Ancient Egyptian is done. Status:
--- Error 1 of 2 ---
The religion confucian has 4 holy sites, not 5.
--- Error 2 of 2 ---
The religion indoh_confucian has 4 holy sites, not 5.
which is how it will remain until we resolve how to handle the off-map holy sites. I don't see how we can leave them off-map though. CK2 has to read history/provinces to find out if the barony is a temple, which means it has to be part of a province.