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Furion Matsuya

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Wow nice work Numahr!
 

Quintus Aquilla

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I noticed that the Varangian Solar Religions(Odin-Solar and Horsic) both have their holy sites as the patriarchs, so in order for a religion found in Russia to reform it needs to invade major cities in the Mediterranean which seems pretty odd and a tad difficult. I know it’s because they’re a Solar religion but even then it seems like they’d pick different cities for patriarchs considering the geography involved. Is this something you’d consider changing or are the patriarchal holy sites for Solar Religions set in stone?

EDIT and I just noticed the explanation on the Solar holy sites, still seems weird and a little unfair that a religion in Russia needs to invade the mediterranean to reform, but so be it
 
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Numahr

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Spiritual life is unfair, sometimes...

You explained pretty well the rationale for this: these religions are spiritually rooted in the Meditarranean, although now thriving far away. There are several such "exiled" religions in LI, but they are a small minority. Basically your followers tell stories of these holy places like the Ladino of Istanbul would speak of Castille or the pre-20th century Jews would speak of Palestine, although they had not seen these places for centuries (/ millenia).

Note that not every thing is unfair. Your strong solar ascendant comes with... a Graeco-Roman ascendant, which gives a nice boost to your religious modifiers.

All in all, such is the condition of semi-civilized barbarians: belonging not really to this world, not really to the other, but a bit to both, defining your own spiritual way will be a challenge, indeed...
 

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The diversity of experiences found where religion, geography, culture, and history conjoin is where LI really shines (no pun intended :D) . The mod gives you all sorts of historical reasons to (role)play interesting and sometimes very challenging strategies/goals, and the mechanics back them up. Let SELIN be your guide in this strange world...

Very nice work, Numahr. Hopefully I'll have a new PC in the next few months so I can fire up LI soon!
 
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Quintus Aquilla

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Yeah I was a little hasty to call it unfair, I seemed to have forgotten that this is a game that revolves around asymmetry. i'll have some fun carving my way to the black sea and then outwards

I've got another question, what exactly are the reformed Zurvanists? Their flavor text makes them sound like nihilists which could make sense but why does organising their religion turn them into nihilists?
 

Crush3r

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Regarding the Egyptian religions, I think that for the "amun" and "amun_reformed", "GOD_SET" should be put in the "god_names" rather than "evil_god_names" group, leaving only "GOD_APEP" (who's more of a concept of chaos than a god). The slow transformation of Set into a more sinister character happened under the influence of Zoroastrian good-evil duality and the mystery cults that were popping up everywhere around the 1st century. This was never really fully incorporated into Classical Egyptian theology. I can see "isis" and "isis_reformed" doing that as it's heavily Greek influenced and originated as a mystery cult itself, but not the traditionalist Amunites. I don't know about "horus_re", but they should probably also have Set removed from the evil god list.

PS: The non-Isetites should probably also use more traditional (non-Greek) god names: Amun-Ra, Wesir (Osiris), Aset (Isis), Heru (Horus) or Heru-ur (Horus the Elder) and Heru-sa-Aset (Horus the Younger / son of Isis), Yinepu / Anpu (Anubis).
 
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Furion Matsuya

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Thanks for the informed suggestion. I agree, and can announce that the change is already on line in the Github version :)
Can the names switch depending on the culture, for example if Hellenic, Roman or Rhomaion cultures have one of the Egyptian religions maybe they would use their versions of the names?
 

Numahr

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Sneakpeak of dynamic soul-based laws & governments...

Those governments will come and go if you let your piety or your authority go too low or high with various effects, positive or negative, clearly defined in my design document...

This is based on a slider-like law that is itself soul-based: the two most extreme positions of the slider force government change on you. Here you see the Populist extreme left one, which I had already coded for the People's Control Power module, specific to Populist religions. Each soul will have its specific slider-like law: "State Apparatus" for Statist religions, "Scholarly Debate" for Scholarly religions, "Weigh of Traditions" for Traditionalist religions, etc.

Now I just have coded in the "anarchist government" (sic) for populist religions reaching low authority.

Some more dynamic soul-based governments to come include Messianic, Demagogic, Mystic, Totalitarian, Martial and Scholastic governments... Some will give you vast powers, at a price. Hint: with the right guidance Neoplatonism may be as potent a "humanist liberation" ideology as Marxism became in our time...

Consider the Anarchist one below a proof of concept.

Stay tuned for more!











Edit: @Furion Matsuya , I don't think this is possible...
 
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Furion Matsuya

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Ohh dang I assumed it might have been since I could have sworn Greeco-Roman changed localisation from Zeus to Jupiter depending onc ulture for example
 
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qer

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Awesome work with the governments. It will probably be a very interesting mechanism

About anarchist governments, it would be cool if other anarchist vassal are free to left the kingdom whenever they want without triggering an independence war, to simulate the very loose connection to power
 
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Numahr

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Good idea.

I just coded in the "demagogic" government, whereby the ruler uses masses to impose tyranny on the vassal structure. Powerful but dangerous... (I went to the murder plot code to add some nasty stuff there... you'd better have a good spymaster/intrigue level if you want to go this way)

More info on this soon.
 
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Furion Matsuya

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Good idea.

I just coded in the "demagogic" government, whereby the ruler uses masses to impose tyranny on the vassal structure. Powerful but dangerous... (I went to the murder plot code to add some nasty stuff there... you'd better have a good spymaster/intrigue level if you want to go this way)

More info on this soon.
So going for high risk high reward systems kind of like the old clannic laws eg Anarchy would be used to take advantage of the combat modifers and a demagogic leader could do very well if he is strong enough while a child ruler with no stats or an idiot inbred would be in trouble basically?
 

Numahr

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Yes kind of.

In fact let me clarify the working of the spiritual power law and dynamic governments I have designed, and on the way to implement:

- the old "clanic" laws still exist (i.e. system for tribal realms to have huge change of power depending on the prestige, called "authority" in LI). Only now it will be confined to all tribal realms, but only them, for the sake of clarity.
- for non-tribal, non-merchant republic realms, the new spiritual power law is the equivalent, with 5 positions based on a slider progression.
- the exact definition of the spiritual power law depends on which of the 7 souls you religion belongs to. For example, for Martial religions, it will represent the extent to which the army influences politics. For populist religions, it is... the people. Etc.
- but a common stance applies to all 7 kinds of spiritual power:
  • spiritual power is affected by piety or authority. Relevant currency depends on the soul: authority applies to populist soul, but piety to clerical ones. At moderate levels, you can decide where you are. But when piety or authority gets really low or high, you cannot resist the societal changes.
  • middle position is a balanced one where the game plays as if the law did not exist. The religion basically does not influence politics and society so much.
  • if your level of piety or authority gets low, you may go to the left slide of the slider. This means that the foundation of your nation's spiritual power (the people, the army, the clergy, etc.) gets increasingly free from you. It is a mixed bag: you get less, but following a liberal view of society, freedom gives them more power that you can still harness.
  • if your level of piety or authority gets high, you may go the right slide of the slider. This means that you exercise increasing control over the foundation of your spiritual power. It is also a mixed bag, although more clearly positive. Tighter control mostly means more resources and decision=making power for the ruler. But it comes at a price: resentment and less motivation.
  • the effect of your law is also felt at provincial level, with typically more levy but less tax when you go "left". The provincial effect, by design, has inertia: a change of law and government at realm level may take some time before the local impact follows up. When you take control of your people after a period of anarchy, it may take some time before they effectively disband their local self-rule committees...
  • the two extreme positions of the slider force a new dynamic government upon you, as the way spiritual power is channeled in your realms changes the very substance of the way your realm is governed.
  • "Extreme left" governments, those stemming from extreme left position in the slider, give you mostly malus and restrictions but open a few opportunities you may want to use, like free levy in offensive wars and the special Liberation War casus belli for populist religions (the masses are eager to follow you in spreading freedom... a process that lets you increase authority and eventually reign them in).
  • "Extreme right" governments, on the opposite, tend to create a quasi-totalitarian system where the vassals loose power and influence at the expense of the ruler, who is strengthened by a very tight control over the source of the realm's spiritual power. Typically the ruler can get full levies from vassals and can revoke titles easily. This creates very authoritarian system, with benefits but also drawbacks. One of them is this new threat for more assassinations by disgruntled vassals...
- as a result of this system, a weak ruler will tend to drift to the left. In my tests, weak populist realms, upon military defeat, fall into anarchy. Note that this is not necessarily bad for them: the ruler has a hard time controlling its realm, but on defense the levy bonus will make problems for invaders. A strong ruelr will tend to move to the right. So an "idiot inbred" as you say will have a hard time establishing an extreme right government such as a demagogic government.

- upon succession, the piety or authority value of the new ruler will quickly result in an adjustment of the law and of the resulting dynamic government. So indeed, once the charismatic ruler dies (more or less violently...), the demagogic system he put in place will probably collapse. Of course, he can groom his heir to ensure he has enough authority upon succession so as to maintain the demagogic government.

I guess that summarizes the system. Stay tuned for more details, I'll show you the demagogic system as soon as I solve my issue with uploading screenshots I took.
 
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Furion Matsuya

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Sounds wicked, I think Shaytana would be very proud where ever he is (Since nobody knows what actually happened with he may very well be alive)
 
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Numahr

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What I love with LI is that it gives such a nice framework for wicked systems in a pseudo-historical context to fulfill crazy fantasies of historical nerds... Such a system would be too far away from realism for HIP or CK2+, but it gets very savorous in a historical context including the Cathars and Mazdakists, in my opinion...

Although I am thinking of later exporting this system for WTWSMS or other MODs including the fantasy ones as a sub-mod for a handful of religions, maybe...
 
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Indeed and I could easily see a demagogic Basileia Rhomaion arising is Flavious Julianos or his heirs adopt his wives Dionysian religion, that would lend well to such a system if the souls blend well. Same with the Sethians in the Holy Land and maybe the Antimonian realms and maybe the Donatist Berbers (haven't checked them out in a while so I am probably very wrong on this account)
 

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Dionysian and Antinomian religions have populist souls and will be able to establish demagogic governments, indeed.

Sethians and Donatist religions both have traditional souls, not populist. Their extreme-right government will be Golden Age, whereby the ruler announces the realm has come back to its essential roots by complying strictly to (largely re-invented...) millennia-old traditions, thus ushering a new so-called "Golden Age" under his guidance (see contemporary Turkmenistan for inspiration... the capital has billboards announcing very seriously that "the XXI century is the Turkmens' Golden Age" over portraits of the smiling president). In practice, it is an authoritarian regime legitimized by respecting complex and odd rituals. In game terms, it will be a toned-down version of demagogic, with piety acting as currency. It will be quite authoritarian but with more checks and restrictions on the ruler (no full levy and tax, just a bonus to minimum levy and tax), more morale bonus and less resentment from the vassals. A very good mix, still powerful and more stable. Increasing piety to the required high level is slightly more difficult though...
 
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