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Numahr

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Nice thanks!

The Graeco-Roman ascendant is correctly accounted for. The "Messianic" soul is a bit unclear though. The description should reflect the fact that the religion opens up the Messinanic soul's special features such as prepared invasions, defensive attrition, extreme modifiers, etc. The generic description for Messianic is "Its Soul is Messianic: believers see the state of the world as hopelessly flawed, but their divine-inspired deeds shall bring forth salvation in our time, against all odds!", and that should be felt when reading the description. In other words, what is this strong mystical impulse that pushes Buddhaksetran believers into militant fanaticism, compared to calmer versions of Buddhism?

To any volunteer willing to draft a religion's description, I encourage read the generic description of the soul in the Matrix (Typology tab) and apply it in your text, to give more flesh to your description, and, importantly, to relate it to the in-game modifiers / features the player will experience.
 

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Nice thanks!

The Graeco-Roman ascendant is correctly accounted for. The "Messianic" soul is a bit unclear though. The description should reflect the fact that the religion opens up the Messinanic soul's special features such as prepared invasions, defensive attrition, extreme modifiers, etc. The generic description for Messianic is "Its Soul is Messianic: believers see the state of the world as hopelessly flawed, but their divine-inspired deeds shall bring forth salvation in our time, against all odds!", and that should be felt when reading the description. In other words, what is this strong mystical impulse that pushes Buddhaksetran believers into militant fanaticism, compared to calmer versions of Buddhism?

To any volunteer willing to draft a religion's description, I encourage read the generic description of the soul in the Matrix (Typology tab) and apply it in your text, to give more flesh to your description, and, importantly, to relate it to the in-game modifiers / features the player will experience.

You're right, I've neglected the militant part a bit, because while writing this bit (which I did some time ago) I didn't have a good enough feel of how to connect it whith the Pure Land Buddhism we know. However, now that you point this out and I think about it... How would you like that version:


Buddhaksetran (Pure Land) Buddhism is a heretic branch of Sthaviravada, characterised by its hellenic influences and messianic character. Its adherents venerate Amitābha, the Buddha of Compassion, who promised that those who heed his call will be reincarnated in the land of Sukhāvatī (often identified with the Elysian Fields), where he and his bodhisattvas will instruct them in ways of achieving Nirvana. The devotional practices of Buddhaksetran Buddhists combine traditional Buddhist meditations with Greek-style sacrifices of wine or plants and mystery rites devoted to Amitābha and his bodhisattvas, among which many Greek gods and heroes can be found. The sacred task of the Buddhaksetran Buddhists is to bring all of Humanity to Sukhāvatī, by means of purging all the false religions that lead people away from the Compassion of Amitābha, Vajrapani-Hercules, Apollo-Mahasthamaprapta and other merciful beings of the Elysium. Buddhaksetran monastic communities are especially bent on spreading the faith by both helping the local populace and bringing the unbelievers to light, by sword and spear if necessary. After all, it is better for the deceived to die and reincarnate than to keep polluting their karma by false practices and teachings. Some Pure Land Buddhists see Megas Alexandros as a bodhisattva whose goal was to unite Humanity in one realm so that it could peacefully study the Elysian teachings, and struggle to finish his great work.
 

Numahr

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Morale Authority modifiers

Sorry for long silence.

Ufnal your description is good and takes better the Messianic soul into account but the religion, as you can see, is not Heretical, it is a local variant of a Mainstream doctrine. I'll correct this and integrate it.

---

Update: the new upload focuses on mainstreaming 2 previously designed SELIN features. Let's start with Morale Authority

Morale Authority Modifiers

The characteristics of a religion now affect how strong its natural Morale Authority is when a religion is structured and benefits from a Head of religion, according to the following formula:
(only relevant characteristics with an impact are indicated here)

Doctrinal Status:
Local variation: -5
Heretical doctrine: +5

Civilization:
(as always, ascendents impact at 50%)
Archaic: +10
Barbarian: -5
Buddhist: +5
Gnostic: +5
Graeco-Roman: -5
Islamic: +10
Steppe: -5

Soul:
State: -10
Populist: -5
Scholarly: -5
Messianic: +10
Clerical: +15

Notes:
- Due to the way this is implemented, the modifier is an average, with the exact SELIN modifier varying slightly over time.
- As a nice addition, the in-game tooltip provides a clear indication of the doctrinal status, civilization and soul modifiers separately, allowing the player to understand the origin of all MA modifiers of a given religion.


Monthly Piety and Authority Modifiers

These SELIN modifiers are now reserved to rulers. They have been exported back from religious modifiers to triggered modifiers ("realm modifiers"). They are now called "[a religion's] practice of power" to make it clear that they do not concern non-rulers. With this fix, no longer will courtiers (or unlanded heirs) be generating implausible values of piety and authority while sitting idle at court. It also models more accurately the fact that the religions impact these values as political factors, not personal - individual ones.
 
Last edited:

Attalus

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Correct me if I'm wrong but a local Graeco-Roman Statist Local Religion (like Apollon-Boreas I think) would get -20 authority, so even if it holds two holy site, their effect is nullified ?
 

Numahr

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Note that only organized religions with a head are concerned. it means that Apollon-Boreas, for instance, is not.

In fact the maximum malus a religion could get is -20, which is exactly the bonus for getting orgainzed. But in fact, due to the characteristics of most organized religions, no religion gets the theoritical maximum malus of -20.

Let me list you the religions with low Morale Authority (-10 or -15):
Arian: -10
Pratyekan: -10
Docetist: -10
Orthodox: -10
Solomonic Christian: -10
Unctionist: -15
Phrygian: -10

On the other hand, here are religions with high Morale Authority (+30 or more):
Almaqahi 45
Haruri 30
Manichaean 35
Platonic Islamic 30
Yorùbá 33
Akomanic 35
Amarnist 30
Dzogcheni 35
Typhonist 38
Angakkuqi 35
Sekhmetist 35
Adunayic 40
Rišamman 35
Røkkatrú 30
Kheprian 30
Tàipíng Dào 30
Yitian Chóngbài 33
Bai-Ülgeni 38
Vithoban 38
Yârsâni 30

In general the compound impact increases Morale Authority across the board, although some religions loose some. That will further diversify playstyles, strategies and eventually the user experience... in addition to providing with a stronger sense of why your religion is unique (in spite of the game having more than 250 of them!)
 

Attalus

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Note that only organized religions with a head are concerned. it means that Apollon-Boreas, for instance, is not.

In fact the maximum malus a religion could get is -20, which is exactly the bonus for getting orgainzed. But in fact, due to the characteristics of most organized religions, no religion gets the theoritical maximum malus of -20.

Let me list you the religions with low Morale Authority (-10 or -15):
Arian: -10
Pratyekan: -10
Docetist: -10
Orthodox: -10
Solomonic Christian: -10
Unctionist: -15
Phrygian: -10

On the other hand, here are religions with high Morale Authority (+30 or more):
Almaqahi 45
Haruri 30
Manichaean 35
Platonic Islamic 30
Yorùbá 33
Akomanic 35
Amarnist 30
Dzogcheni 35
Typhonist 38
Angakkuqi 35
Sekhmetist 35
Adunayic 40
Rišamman 35
Røkkatrú 30
Kheprian 30
Tàipíng Dào 30
Yitian Chóngbài 33
Bai-Ülgeni 38
Vithoban 38
Yârsâni 30

In general the compound impact increases Morale Authority across the board, although some religions loose some. That will further diversify playstyles, strategies and eventually the user experience... in addition to providing with a stronger sense of why your religion is unique (in spite of the game having more than 250 of them!)
Ah okay. I did not understand it was for reformed religions. Makes sense then ;)
 

Ufnal

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I wasn't following this subforum too closely in the times of Rajas of India, so I don't know how did you arrive at the current state of affairs in India and the Middle-Far East (I'm guessing it wasn't Lord Shaytana's work, as he vanished before RoI), but scrolling through the religions list I am wondering about some possibilities you haven't decided to pursue. For example - what if the Nasrani faith, which seems to be much more powerful in LI, exchanged some influences with the Buddhists, resulting in some kind of Jesus = Buddha faith. Such an idea seems to fit quite nicely in the world full of religions based on identifying two deities/great beings with one another. ;) I have no idea how much set in stone current religions list is, but at least I can always speculate and ask about your decisions. ;)
 

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Well, the Nasrani already have Indian influences, as referenced by the SELIN matrix, and it's reformed version is outright of Indian civilization, so the base is there for a Christian-Hindu syncretism, it just needs some flavour. A Christ-Buddha cult has been proposed a lot of times, but I believe it was ultimately discarded in favour of the Nasrani when designing the religious map of LI's India. The Middle East's religious map is mostly Shaytana's design though, otherwise there would be no crazy stuff like the Sabaeans or the Palmyrene rump state.

As for stuff being set in stone... we could add the religion to 00_religions and thanks to the SELIN matrix it's relatively easy to apply the correct modifiers and other stuff, but then you have to check every file which references religions (CBs, events, etc...) and add the religion there as well, to make sure that the religion has it's proper characteristics set. That's why we prefer adding religions in batches, there's a couple of them "waiting in line" to be added, like the Grail-Zalmoxis-Christ cult, a proper Punic religion ( Archaic civ + Saharan ascendant I guess ) for the surviving Punic colonies and the religions Numahr has in store for Central Asia 2.0 .

Nevertheless, it's ultimately under Numahr's authority which religion makes it in and which not.
 

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Ah, so the Nasrani are way more indianised than in real life? OK, that's certainly good to know. ;)

Is there a list of those "waiting in line" religions for common people to drool on? ;)
 

Numahr

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The new parser tool will make it much easier to introduce new religions.

Nonetheless the priority on the religious front is to improve mechanics for the current set up. To be honest, the present set up already provides an incredible diversity of religions from whatever point of viw you approach it. So, while all the perspectives mentioned by DarkReborn are valid, before adding new religions, the priority is to ensure that players enjoy at the maximum the religious game with the existing religions, before widening the scope. Presently, we already have a good system in place, but it needs to be improved in a few areas. This means a few mechanics more ("Popular Power" module for populist religions, almost ready / wisemen mechanic following HIP Finnic Shamans approach for Traditional religions / Clerical power for clerical religions, inspired from the Popular Power module but with the clergy in mind) and better descriptions. Descriptions is precisely where you can help... ;) I'll send you a PM soon on this
 

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@Numahr: I've identified a troublesome bug while coding some of my stuff, the "is_reformed_religion = yes" check is NOT working correctly at all when used in succession laws.

I did a test in Vanilla using:

Code:
holder_scope = { is_reformed_religion = yes }
In both "allow" and "potential", and religions that are supposed to start reformed, like Catholic or Sunni, don't count as reformed at all. Only the reformed variations of the Pagan religions and the Hellenic religion have access to the succession law. I'll report this to Paradox ASAP, but at the moment we must find another solution other than using "is_reformed_religion = yes" and adding "pre_reformed = yes" to most religions since I've been told this is very problematic to use outside of the one special case in vanilla ( Hellenic ).

So, where we used "is_reformed_religion = yes", I propose we use this:

Code:
OR = {
	religion = adoptionist
	religion = alexandros
	religion = almaqah
	religion = apollinarist
	religion = arian
	religion = ashari
	religion = athari
	religion = audianist
	religion = aztec
	religion = bud_bahusrutiya
	religion = bud_mahayana
	religion = bud_pratyeka
	religion = bud_pureland
	religion = bud_sthaviravada
	religion = bud_vajrayana
	religion = catholic
	religion = confucian
	religion = docetist
	religion = donatist 
	religion = haruri
	religion = hindu
	religion = hurufi
	religion = iconoclast
	religion = ilm_islam
	religion = indoh_bud
	religion = indoh_confucian
	religion = indoh_hindu
	religion = indoh_zor
	religion = jain
	religion = jud_zion
	religion = jupiter
	religion = luwian
	religion = mani
	religion = mani_mithra
	religion = marcionist
	religion = maturidi
	religion = melkite
	religion = mithra
	religion = mithra_christ
	religion = mithra_sol
	religion = monophysite
	religion = monothelite
	religion = murjiah
	religion = mutazil
	religion = mwari
	religion = neoplato
	religion = nestorian
	religion = nyau
	religion = orthodox
	religion = pelagian
	religion = plato_christ
	religion = plato_islam
	religion = plato_pythagorean
	religion = porphyryan
	religion = roman_imperial
	religion = sabellianist 
	religion = semipelagian
	religion = shiite
	religion = sol
	religion = sol_apollo
	religion = sol_christ
	religion = sol_mani
	religion = solomonic_alexandros
	religion = solomonic_christ
	religion = sunni
	religion = unctionist
	religion = valentinian 
	religion = yoruba
	religion = zahiri
	religion = zal
	religion = zal_christ
	religion = zal_mani
	religion = zor_hindu
	religion = zoroastrian
	is_reformed_religion = yes
}


I know it's very roundabout and less functional than just using "is_reformed_religion = yes", but it's the way Vanilla does it, only that all of vanilla's unreformed religions are grouped inside of the Pagan group, and not all over the place like in LI, so we have to check individually, so they just have to use:

Code:
				OR = {
					NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
					is_reformed_religion = yes
				}
This way, we don't have to use the problematic "pre_reformed = yes" parameter, since it causes a whole lot of problems like the religion not appearing in the ledger, it being inherently vulnerable to conversions ( This is apparently calculated from the game's engine itself, rather than from the conversion event ), and if my own testing is right, makes the AI extremely passive.
 

Numahr

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OK. Well, I understand we need to
1. remove pre_reformed = yes on 00religions.txt; and
2. replace all instances of is_reformed_religion = yes by an individual check on each religion.

Related issues / questions
1. Without the pre_reformed = yes parameter, how do we notify the engine that luwian, for example, is already reformed? Does the engine assign a reformed status by default, the unreformed status being granted only if you have the "reformed = x" parameter?

2. If that does not work, maybe we need to create a dummy religion being the virtual unreformed version of each reformed religion, and give it a parameter "reformed = luwian", for example, to make sure luwian is considered reform.

3. If one of the above work arounds works, then I guess we can keep the "is_reformed = yes" condition

Also, the "is_reformed_religion = yes" may concern other files than just the Succession Law, in case we go ahead with removing it.

I can't access the game files until tonight to check these things myself...
 

DarkReborn

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OK. Well, I understand we need to
1. remove pre_reformed = yes on 00religions.txt; and
2. replace all instances of is_reformed_religion = yes by an individual check on each religion.
Yes, essentially, the OR I posted checks that the religion is either one that starts reformed (but it isn't identified as such by the is_reformed_religion = yes) and then it also checks for the actual reformed religions ( ahriman_reformed, etc.. ) by using is_reformed_religion = yes ( notice it's at the end of the OR in my previous post, maybe I should move it up ).

Related issues / questions
1. Without the pre_reformed = yes parameter, how do we notify the engine that luwian, for example, is already reformed? Does the engine assign a reformed status by default, the unreformed status being granted only if you have the "reformed = x" parameter?
In vanilla, the engine applies the reformed status by default to religions that don't have the "reformed = x" parameter AND aren't in the Pagan religious group. Religions inside that group are hardcoded to start unreformed unless they're reformed versions of other religions, or have the "pre_reformed = yes" parameter. Since we don't use the pagan_group (except for one reformed religion), this doesn't affect us much.


Also, the "is_reformed_religion = yes" may concern other files than just the Succession Law, in case we go ahead with removing it.


I can't access the game files until tonight to check these things myself...
Apparently, it only works incorrectly when used in the Succesion Laws. Everywhere else ( demesne laws, events, decisions ) it works OK.

I'm going to upload the version with the new check ( Though in game I've hidden it behind a "Is a reformed religion" custom tooltip to prevent the tooltip from expanding too much ), so you can test it tonight.

In case you want to check how "is_reformed_religion = yes" works correctly outside of the sucession laws play as any Clannic religion, for example tengri_pagan, and reform it. You'll see how the clannic demesne/crown laws are replaced by the normal ones. Also, trigger the event "WoL.7000" using the console, and you'll notice that it's description text is different depending on if you're reformed tengri_pagan or unreformed.

This shows "is_reformed_religion = yes" works correctly (ie: it identifies, default reformed, reformed and unreformed religions correctly ) outside of succession_laws.

All in all, this is very odd, so I'll post it in the Bug Report forum ASAP.
 

DarkReborn

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@Numahr:
I've just completed and uploaded the adapted SoA holy order interaction stuff ( Donate to, Borrow from, Expel, and Vassalize Holy Orders decisions + the events where they ask you to build baronies in your demesne or ask for your sons to join the order ) to ALL of our holy orders ( Yes! All of them! ) in less than 1 hour and a half thanks to this wonderful, amazing piece of code. Seriously, check it out, I can already think of a few applications on how this can benefit a lot of stuff in LI.
 

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Does it not do the same as the Parser I already used for the same purpose? If so, what are the potential benefits?
The Parser works greatly for exporting information from the SELIN matrix and calculating complex operations with it's values, but I'm not that good with Python ( Just a quick course almost 4 years ago and I admittedly don't remember much ), so I did not know how to further tweak the code to produce the decisions and events related to the Holy Orders (ie: not the holy orders themselves ).

But using this, just defining a list with the religions that have a holy order and modifying the SoA holy order events and decisions a bit so that they allow input from all holy oders ( Unlike in vanilla, where there's an event for the Templars, other for the Hashashin, etc... ) and adding macros into the that use the religion list as a parameter in the appropriate places ( For example, a trigger that referenced d_knights_templar can be used to reference all the holy orders by changing it into d_holy%religionlist% ). It's code is simpler to modify ( For me ) so that I can use it for a lot of repetitive event/decision coding tasks. For example, the "Mend the Schism" mechanic that vanilla uses for the Orthodox can be adapted to the whole plethora of (reformed) Christian religions by using this tool as well.
 

Numahr

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OK perfect, got it! So:
- any extraction from the Matrix -> SELIN Parser (with me I guess in command)
- any other bulk operation not requiring extraction from the Matrix -> Ck2Macro.

I can't imagine how many days of heroic hard work could have been saved if we had had these 2 tools earlier!... :)
Anyway let's make good use of them now!

On that note, my next project with the parser is the Encyclopedia of LI's religions: basically, all or most Matrix info on all religions in a user friendly format... I am currently thinking about this one.

--
Edit: really cool stuff on these HO features - and I love your names for them! :p
 
Last edited:

Numahr

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People's Power module for Populist Religions

Overview
I have added a new module to better portray the specificities of the populist religions.

A populist religion is a religion that "strives to achieve equality in this world, supporting the commoners against the privileged classes and doctrinal formalism". There are 11 of them out of 247 religions in LI, so they are not many. But they represent a very interesting category of religions, with, as I see it, a potential for a proto-modern "totalitarian ideology". Of course the fact that this is Lux Invicta, where the spiritual extremes are welcome, makes such a social engineering approach possible. But even in our world, Mazdakists and Cathars, 2 notorious of the populist religions, were indeed a bit special...

For reference, Lux Invicta's 11 populist religions are:
- Antinomian
- Bogomilist
- Cathar
- Dionysian
- Fraticelli
- Khawdash Siyunic
- Kharijite
- Dragomirist
- Mazdakist
- Daojiao
- Waldensian

In short, the module makes authority a key value determining how your power is affected by the social-spiritual ideals of your people:
- at low level of authority, your people gets more power, limiting you but opening the possibility for special wars
- as authority increases, your people gets under your control, making realm management "standard" compared to other religions
- at yet higher levels of authority, you can manipulate the masses to gain an impressive level of power


Levels of People's Power

People's power level is determined by a demesne law. There are 3 ways this level can change:
1. It can change automatically based on your level of authority when it reaches certain thresholds. You cannot get to the 2 highest levels this way, but you can loose them.
2. You can also try to freely change the level at less demanding levels, but this is a law change that requires approval by your vassals.
3. The 2 highest levels, where you manipulate the masses, can be imposed to your realm if you reach twice the threshold of regular law change possibility. This means that you directly call to the people to join you, bypassing your vassals' authority.

Here comes the description of the 5 levels with their thresholds and effects. Some effects are direct (they are immediate and affect your whole demesne immediately) while some of them are indirect, meaning that they depend on social reforms and revolution spreading throughout your demesne. The rate at which social reforms and revolution spread depends on many factors (average time is 3 months for each province).


1. Popular Liberty

Access threshold
- Potentially forced to you at authority < 0
- Selectable at authority < 200

Direct Effects
- Succession Law switched to Open Elective (yes!)
- Access to Liberation War Casus Belli
- Light Infantry, Light Cavalry and Archers +1 attack value
- Morale of armies +100%
- Vassal limit -10
- Demesne size -2
- Global Revolt Risk +10%
- Vassal opinion -20
- Minimum vassal levy contributions -20%

Indirect effects (province modifiers)
- Levy size +100%
- Levy reinforce rate +100%
- Local income -80%


2. Popular Autonomy

Access threshold
- Potentially forced to you at authority < 200
- Selectable at authority 0 - 399

Direct Effects
- Access to Liberation War Casus Belli
- Light Infantry, Light Cavalry and Archers +0.5 attack value
- Morale of armies +50%
- Vassal limit -5
- Demesne size -1
- Global Revolt Risk +2%
- Vassal opinion -10
- Minimum vassal levy contributions -10%

Indirect effects (province modifiers)
- Levy size +25%
- Levy reinforce rate +25%
- Local income -50%


3. People Under Control

Access threshold
- Potentially forced to you at authority < 500
- Selectable at authority 200 - 1000

Effects
None (standard religion modifiers and features continue to apply)


4. Demagogic Guidance

Access threshold
- Potentially forced to you at authority < 1000
- Selectable at authority > 500
- Can be imposed at authority > 1,000

Effects
Revokation of titles possible
- Demesne size +1
- Vassal opinion -10
- Minimum vassal levy contributions +20%
- Vassal tax +20%


5. Demagogic Cult of Personality

Access threshold
- Selectable at authority > 100
- Can be imposed at authority > 2,000

Effects
Free Revokation of titles possible
- Access to Liberation War Casus Belli
- Demesne size +3
- Vassal opinion -40
- Minimum vassal levy contributions +50%
- Vassal tax +50%


Liberation Wars

- Targets 1 county of a different religion
- +30 authority gained when declared / Nothing lost if white peace / -20 if defeated / +70 if victorious
- Upon success, the title is granted to local "leader of the people", in fact a newly generated low born convert of the local culture with the ambitious trait and a martial education. Thus you create a low-born ruler of your religion but potentially of a whole new culture. He gets 600 soldiers, mostly light troops, to defend his liberty.

Note how that war could create a small independent "democracy" (open elective) in that area as the new low-born ruler could fall under 0 authority by the virtue of the negative authority modifier which all populist religions have. Not that an independent single county could survive on its own for long anyway, even with free 600 soldiers. The ruler being of your religion, close to you (maybe in your de jure) and very weak, you could try to vassalize it by diplomatic means. The different culture makes it no automatic though...

---
As for all SELIN features, feedback and suggestions most welcome :)
 
Last edited: