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Numahr

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- Defensive Attrition is not new, and is already integrated by SELIN: it characterizes Steppe civilization and Messianic soul.
- landed_kin_prestige_bonus could be given to Muslim religions exactly for the same reason than Vanilla - should anyone else benefit from it? Why not Persian and all Tribal religions?
- dislike_tribal_organization = yes should be given to what we call "tribal religions", which is the LI equivalent of Vanilla "unreformed Pagans"
- allow_in_ruler_designer = no is irrelevant to us
 

Numahr

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On Morale Authority and Heir Designation

OK so here is my suggestion to integrate Morale Authority modifiers and Heir Designation into SELIN.

Heir Designation

I am considering granting Heir Designation to:
- Statist Soul: self-evident and the trigger of this discussion
- Jewish and Gnostic Civilizations: these somewhat marginal spiritual cultures give more importance to efficient transmission of power by a line of charismatic rulers than otherwise traditional ways to define succession. In terms of gameplay, Jewish civilization is very limited anyway; Gnostic civilization deserved a special attention to make it more unique.

In practice, that would mean the following, rather substantial list (excluding reforming religions). The list of quite long but "makes sense" and interestingly sheds light on an interesting set of relatively exotic religions.
Code:
amun
arian
batembuzi
beelshamen
bogomilist
bud_pratyeka
bud_zen
indoh_bud
indoh_confucian
indoh_hindu
indoh_zor
jud_ark
jud_sabaoth
jud_zion
judaism
jupiter
kintu
kubera
luwian
mand_ruha
mandaean
mani
mani_ahriman
mani_germanic
mani_mithra
mani_slavic
mithra
mithra_christ
murjiah
neoplato
norse_christ
orthodox
plato_christ
plato_islam
plato_pythagorean
roman_imperial
sethian
sol
sol_apollo
sol_boreas
sol_christ
sol_islam
sol_mani
sol_norse
sol_slav
solomonic_christ
sowilo
sunni
svaroh
tengri_rod
unctionist
valentinian 
vidharma
yahyanism
zor_hindu

Morale Authority

We had discussed applying a negative modifier to MA to Statist religions in exchange of the interesting Heir Designation feature. This idea remains valid; furthermore, the feature can be used, to some lesser extent, for other relevant SELIN characteristics to produce interesting game-play effects, modeling the inherent doctrinal strength and solidity of the various religious systems competing with each other in LI.

Concretely, my proposed typology is as follows:

By Doctrinal Status:

Local variation (eg unctionism) -5
Heretical doctrine (eg cathar) +5

By Civilization:
Buddhist +5
Islamic +5

By Soul:
State -10
Messianic +5
Clerical +10

By Mentality:
Ancestral -5
Bastion of the Faith +10

As you can guess, this has effects all across the board. Religions considered as more "artificial" or more "primitive" will be weaker, while the more "militant", "strict" or "organized" ones will tend to be more competitive. Modifier is kept to 5 if they are not relevant in terms of balancing: Bastion of the Faith and Clerical deserved a small boost, Statist needs the malus as discussed to compensate for Heir Designation.

As a result, the winners of this approach are the Haruri (Islamic / Heretical / Clerical) and Almaqahi (Archaic / Mainstream / Clerical / Bastion of the Faith)
faiths with +20 each. Play Harurite if you want to convert. Losers are, notably, some of the Sol-Barbarian syncretisms, such as Apollo-Boreasean, Óðinn-Sólar and Horsic with -20 each.
 

Attalus

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OK so here is my suggestion to integrate Morale Authority modifiers and Heir Designation into SELIN.

Heir Designation

I am considering granting Heir Designation to:
- Statist Soul: self-evident and the trigger of this discussion
- Jewish and Gnostic Civilizations: these somewhat marginal spiritual cultures give more importance to efficient transmission of power by a line of charismatic rulers than otherwise traditional ways to define succession. In terms of gameplay, Jewish civilization is very limited anyway; Gnostic civilization deserved a special attention to make it more unique.

In practice, that would mean the following, rather substantial list (excluding reforming religions). The list of quite long but "makes sense" and interestingly sheds light on an interesting set of relatively exotic religions.
Code:
amun
arian
batembuzi
beelshamen
bogomilist
bud_pratyeka
bud_zen
indoh_bud
indoh_confucian
indoh_hindu
indoh_zor
jud_ark
jud_sabaoth
jud_zion
judaism
jupiter
kintu
kubera
luwian
mand_ruha
mandaean
mani
mani_ahriman
mani_germanic
mani_mithra
mani_slavic
mithra
mithra_christ
murjiah
neoplato
norse_christ
orthodox
plato_christ
plato_islam
plato_pythagorean
roman_imperial
sethian
sol
sol_apollo
sol_boreas
sol_christ
sol_islam
sol_mani
sol_norse
sol_slav
solomonic_christ
sowilo
sunni
svaroh
tengri_rod
unctionist
valentinian 
vidharma
yahyanism
zor_hindu

Morale Authority

We had discussed applying a negative modifier to MA to Statist religions in exchange of the interesting Heir Designation feature. This idea remains valid; furthermore, the feature can be used, to some lesser extent, for other relevant SELIN characteristics to produce interesting game-play effects, modeling the inherent doctrinal strength and solidity of the various religious systems competing with each other in LI.

Concretely, my proposed typology is as follows:

By Doctrinal Status:

Local variation (eg unctionism) -5
Heretical doctrine (eg cathar) +5

By Civilization:
Buddhist +5
Islamic +5

By Soul:
State -10
Messianic +5
Clerical +10

By Mentality:
Ancestral -5
Bastion of the Faith +10

As you can guess, this has effects all across the board. Religions considered as more "artificial" or more "primitive" will be weaker, while the more "militant", "strict" or "organized" ones will tend to be more competitive. Modifier is kept to 5 if they are not relevant in terms of balancing: Bastion of the Faith and Clerical deserved a small boost, Statist needs the malus as discussed to compensate for Heir Designation.

As a result, the winners of this approach are the Haruri (Islamic / Heretical / Clerical) and Almaqahi (Archaic / Mainstream / Clerical / Bastion of the Faith)
faiths with +20 each. Play Harurite if you want to convert. Losers are, notably, some of the Sol-Barbarian syncretisms, such as Apollo-Boreasean, Óðinn-Sólar and Horsic with -20 each.
Even if I agree with these features, it will be now even harder for these religions to be of relevance :p
Moreover it makes them start with 0 MA at the beginning
 

DarkReborn

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Looks reasonable to me.
Only one thing; remember that the minimum MA needed for reform is 50. I suppose that capturing all 5 sites needed for reform outweighs any maluses (that's +50 MA if you capture all the sites), but just keep in mind, that most religions that can reform are of Ancestral mentality.
 

Numahr

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Yes you're right.

Maybe we should add a feature to counter-balance that (counter-counter-balance... :D). I am thinking of a Spiritual retreat decision reserved for glorious rulers (high authority) of ancestral religions, putting them on pilgrimage but increasing MA +10... So just for the sake of reform, the Apollo-Boreasean conqueror of his religion's Holy Sites could limit the MA malus for a while. It works well interms of roleplay: the great conqueror goes on retreat... and when he comes back he got a revelation and changes the universe! With a bonus chance to get possessed to keep it LI-esque ;)

But anyway things still work as is by forcing the few -20 MA religions to conquer all 5 HS, which is an interesting twist on the rule of 4 necessary HS.
 

TheChronoMaster

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I dunno if the actions of an individual ruler should apply anything to Moral Authority, it's meant to represent how the faith is perceived by all, not just its followers. A religion whose gods are 'with them', as it were.

I personally think that increasing the bonus for fending off holy wars and being successful in holy wars would be a good start.
 

Numahr

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On inter-religion marriages and alliances

Inter-religion marriages are being implemented. This is based on a discussion we had here. The discussion was rich but somehow inconclusive so I though I'd document it more clearly.

There are two questions: 1. Can you offer a marriage to other religions? and 2. If so, which religions can you make an offer to?


1. Can you offer a marriage to other religions?

In short, your religion must be relatively pacifist and tolerant to let you engage in diplomatic marriages with other faiths.

Concretely, your religion must meet the following requirements:
- be of a rather pacifist Soul, i.e.: Statist, Traditional, Clerical or Scholarly. Religions more committed to a confrontational approach of inter-religion relations are not ready to voluntarily propose such relations (although they may be in a position to accept such offers, see point 2).
- not have a Heretical doctrinal status. These religions who consciously struggle the dominating order refuse to give up on purity.
- not be Sectarian (level 2 of sectarianism). Being Communitarian (level 1) is still OK though. As a reminder the sectarianism level is granted by certain attributes, partly redundant with the above.


2. If so, which religions can you make an offer to?

The principle is that you can offer inter-religion marriage to relatively open-minded religions sharing doctrinal and cultural similarities.

Concretely, there are two scopes considered:
- religions of the same group or civilization are normally valid targets as long as they are not themselves Sectarian.
- religions of related groups or civilizations are also valid targets as long as they are neither Communitarian nor Sectarian.

What is a "related group or civilization"? Well, they are hand-picked based on lore, proximity and common sense, with a rather generous approach. To give an example, Finnic, Slavic, Baltic and Germanic groups are all "related" to each other for the sake of inter-religion marriages. For example, a ruler following a Baltic religion who can offer inter-religion marriage (all except Saulic) can offer it to all other Baltic religions (even to a Saulic) as well as to rulers following a Finnic religion, but not to Voipel'ean, a communitarian Finnic religion. However, a Suomenuskan ruler (a Finnic religion who can inter-marry) can offer marriage to a Voipel'ean as they are both in the same Finnic group, the communitarian restriction does not apply. To continue the example in this area, Ragnarökric rulers (Norse Sectarian religion) cannot receive nor send marriage offer to and from anyone, they are in full diplomatic isolation.


Next step

To complete the implementation of this, I will then balance it by giving it an added advantage to communitarian and sectarian religions, to compensate for their relative (communitarian) and absolute (sectarian) diplomatic isolation. I have in mind an increased opinion bonus among themselves and intrigue bonus but I am still open to suggestions along this line.
 

richvh

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Which Hindu sects should get the select patron god decision? Right now it's only available to religion = hindu.
 

DarkReborn

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Which Hindu sects should get the select patron god decision? Right now it's only available to religion = hindu.
I guess that only Hindu should, much like in vanilla. All the other sects are vaguely monotheistic.
 

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I've been playing as the Tarhuntite count of Phrygia and Pisidia lately, and in the latest game he died earlier and got inherited by the Hellenic, Solar Christian dynasty member who was inserted for some reason (possibly to be the count of Seleukeia, which is Solar Christian, but for some reason a Luwian count is the holder there.)

The strange part is, this temperate Solar Christian has the Pagan opinion of Temperate modifier... should Solar Christians get that?
 

Numahr

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- On characters, FG edited quite heavily this area so there may be some "lost" or let's say misplaced characters. You may want to bring in consistency to weird stuff when you find some.
- On the modifier, I believe we decided that non-christian, graeco-roman civilization was to follow the "Pagan" approach (only Abrahamic religions are safe from it). Solar Christian is more Solar than Christian and has a graeco-roman civilization, not a Christian one. They integrate the Christ mythos within a pre-Christian "pagan" ethos, if you wish.
 

Furion Matsuya

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With reguards tot he inter-faith marriage set up, once it's complete will the force marriage decision that some cultures/religions have for female prisoners till apply or will they be able to forcefully marry people they normally can't ?
 

Furion Matsuya

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- inter-faith marriage is complete (unless someone reports that it does not work as intended - I did only limited testing).
- the decision to force-marry a prisoner is independent of religions. That is your chance to engage into exotic inter-faith interactions!
Ohh good, evil as it might sound that's one of the things I love about Lux. Playing as an Atenist and making the widow of the Fatimid Caliph become my new wife after executing her husband and children.... :eek:

I though I was a nice person until I played CKII: Lux Invicta...
 

richvh

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I'm working on integrating the Tolerance Laws mod, and have religion related questions on its CBs.

Which (if any) religions should use the antitolerant_ruler CB, where rulers who are not tolerant can attack rulers of the same religion who are tolerant, to force them to no longer be tolerant?

Which (if any) religions should have access to its ambitious_tolerant CB (aka Holy War for tolerants) which takes or vassalizes all titles of a de jure duchy held by the target ruler?

Which (if any) religions should have access to its similar ambitious_tolerant_pagan CB?

Which (if any) religions should have access to its similar ambitious_tolerant_buddhist CB?

Should we include the lift_excommunication CB for Catholics?

Should we use its restrictions on holy war type CBs?
 

Furion Matsuya

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Eosophorism definitely seems like it would be very intolerant, at least in regards to Abrahamic Religions