LRMs vs Heads

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kvetcha

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Do you have a link?

Also I agree one head per unit from weapons fire is the max. Now you can do fall damage as well, but that is a different issue. Right now I'm try to figure out if you can do 3 in a turn. Head hit, side torso destruction and a fall.

I think ammo destruction and torso destruction still trigger their own pilot injuries.
 

Zugs

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I think ammo destruction and torso destruction still trigger their own pilot injuries.

Ive been trying to figure out if you can do 3 in one turn ( ie on mech turn) but It seems 2 is the max. I could be wrong as Ive not tested it hard core. Anyway the real though here is people are over stating head hits. yeah they happen, and I LOVE IT.
 

HonorKnight

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nice, havent done testing to his standard but yeah 1 hit per unit in a turn no matter how many weapons that unit fires is solid. You can also get knock down head hit as well. Everyone one else is using gambler's fallacy.
I am going to assume that in both places where you said "head hit" you meant "pilot injury", because why would you have said being knocked down would cause a head hit unless you mean pilot injury? If this is what you meant, then you are spot on in your intended meaning (but should correct the wording of your post, it is very misleading right now).

If on the other hand you literally meant "1 hit [to the head] per unit in a turn no matter how many weapons that unit fires", then you failed to either read or comprehend Jade_Rook's post, as he had examples with double-digit head hits from a single LRM.
 

Varkin

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I am going to assume that in both places where you said "head hit" you meant "pilot injury", because why would you have said being knocked down would cause a head hit unless you mean pilot injury? If this is what you meant, then you are spot on in your intended meaning (but should correct the wording of your post, it is very misleading right now).

If on the other hand you literally meant "1 hit [to the head] per unit in a turn no matter how many weapons that unit fires", then you failed to either read or comprehend Jade_Rook's post, as he had examples with double-digit head hits from a single LRM.

I think one of the big problems here is some people are using "head hit" and "pilot injury" interchangeably and some people are making a distinction between the two, this is why specificity and accuracy in language when explaining things is important. If a LRM launches missiles at you and the first missile in the volley strikes the head location you will take "head armor" or "head structure" damage to the head location and receive one "pilot injury". More missile in that same volley (where the first missile struck the head location) can also strike the head and do "head armor" or "head structure" damage, but will not cause another "pilot injury". If a LRM launches missiles and the first missile in the volley does not hit the head location, no other missile in that volley can hit the head location.
 

Diedel

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Do you have a link?

Also I agree one head per unit from weapons fire is the max. Now you can do fall damage as well, but that is a different issue. Right now I'm try to figure out if you can do 3 in a turn. Head hit, side torso destruction and a fall.

As i posted, the is no side torso injury in the logs, it shows up a head hit, and i am pretty sure i had that combo and it was only 1 injury. What i am not sure about is the ammo explosion one, as the rest of the options i listed (arty, CT, cockpit) don't really apply. I would guess you can get head/side+ammo+knowdown, but that will be really hard to do.
 

Zugs

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As i posted, the is no side torso injury in the logs, it shows up a head hit, and i am pretty sure i had that combo and it was only 1 injury. What i am not sure about is the ammo explosion one, as the rest of the options i listed (arty, CT, cockpit) don't really apply. I would guess you can get head/side+ammo+knowdown, but that will be really hard to do.


Am I confused here. Side torso destruction does cause injury. Ammo explosions also cause injury.
 

Diedel

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Am I confused here. Side torso destruction does cause injury. Ammo explosions also cause injury.

Yes, but in he combat log the side torso injuries are listed as "head hit" injuries, so i don't think you can get both of them for 2 injuries, as the game treats them as the same for some reason.
 

HonorKnight

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Yes, but in he combat log the side torso injuries are listed as "head hit" injuries, so i don't think you can get both of them for 2 injuries, as the game treats them as the same for some reason.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/lrms-vs-heads.1092917/#post-24161607
If you hit the head 3 times, blow off the left torso, and blow out the right torso with an ammo crit all in one volley of fire. That's still only going to be one pilot injury.

You can get two pilot injuries in a single volley if you cause a pilot injury from the weapon fire or melee attack and knock the target over. One for the attack, and one for the falling down.
 

Jade_Rook

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Xavori

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There should be a requirement to post on this thread: a checkbox, do you confirm that you have read and understand Jade_Rook’s LRM head-hitting test results? If not, i don’t care what else your personal anecdotal experience has led you to believe, or even what dev you want to quote (such a this dev post which started out being accurate but ended in a misstatement in the last sentence; you can only get one injury, except for knockdowns which can be a second injury - not what adarael mistakenly said which was only one hit to the head - per turn per attacker). Jade_Rook provided meaningful rigorous testing of precisely how head hits from LRMs do and do not work. Among other things, he proved 100% with documented counterexamples that Adaraels’s post was wrong about the ability for a single LRM salvo to hit the head multiple times, and he also proved to an extremely high degree of confidence that if the first missile thst hits a target hits anything but the head, none of the following missiles from that launcher can hit the head this turn.

I suspect the dev post about 1 injury per round is wrong. I've killed too many opfor pilots in a single round while leaving myself 3 pieces of salvage at the end of the battle for it not to be. Oddly enough, it's usually on called shots to CT with my Highlander when the enemy is facing at ~45 degrees to my mech causing extra ST hits and a head hit along with the CT shots. I'll see ammo explosion, ST loss, head hit, and then mech will fall over dead even without the CT destroyed message. At the end of the mission, I'll have my 3 pieces of salvage from that mech available.

As for the head hit via missiles, I'm sure the dev's are correct on that. They just aren't that commonplace except against enemies with lots of weapons, not lots of missiles.

If people want something to b***h about, it should be stability damage. All it takes is one mech getting focused by 3-4 enemies with even no more than a single srm launcher each, and there is a really good job you're getting knocked on your ass, even in assaults. Conversely, I've switched my 2 LRM mechs to +stability damage weapons and they can take down any mech in a single round working together.
 

Zugs

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So 2 points of dmg is the most a pilot can suffer per "units" move and fire phase currently?
 

FireStoat

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Having played more than 60 hours into this game, all I know about strikes to the head is that it happens from missiles & machine guns. Really bloody often, too. If I had been shot to the head on a mech with the enemy using a cannon or laser or ppc, It would stand out in my mind from the evenings of play. But it it nearly ALWAYS from missiles and machine guns. I'm starting to think that the OP is correct with their theory.
 

HBS_Eck

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So I talked to the combat engineer and we looked at the code.

I was wrong about the LRM clustering. I thought that had been removed, but apparently LRMs still have clustering rolls so the first hit location determines valid hits. If the first hit is not a head hit, then subsequent rolls for that rack can not be a head hit. I'll correct my steam guide to reflect this. Good find all. :)

I was right about the only one MechWarrior injury per volley of fire. So if you have a volley of fire that cooks the ammo, hits the head twice, and blows up two torsos, that's lumped up into one injury. And then if that knocks your mech down, it will inflict a second injury.

- Eck
 

Ri0Rdian

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I wonder, what is the reasoning behind limiting max injuries per attack? Is this something from tabletop (this is my first BT/MW game so I have no idea) and the game just sticks with it? Because from pure gameplay perspective I see nothing wrong if you get a Head hit, 2 ammo explosions and then knockdown for -4 health, possibly killing you or your enemy. It was either bad luck, very good hit (and stupid item placement) or the mech was in such a bad shape that it would have died anyway. Not like this would favor the player too much, since it can obviously happen to us too.
 

DanDanikov

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Why have the 1 injury per volley then? Might as well make it 1 injury per actual hit to the head...
 

Booo

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Why have the 1 injury per volley then? Might as well make it 1 injury per actual hit to the head...
The volley thing is so that each LRM20 wouldn't have a 18.21% chance of getting a headshot. By giving it one opportunity to headshot it's at 1%, like most other weapons.
 

LORD-ORION

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So I talked to the combat engineer and we looked at the code.

I was wrong about the LRM clustering. I thought that had been removed, but apparently LRMs still have clustering rolls so the first hit location determines valid hits. If the first hit is not a head hit, then subsequent rolls for that rack can not be a head hit. I'll correct my steam guide to reflect this. Good find all. :)

I was right about the only one MechWarrior injury per volley of fire. So if you have a volley of fire that cooks the ammo, hits the head twice, and blows up two torsos, that's lumped up into one injury. And then if that knocks your mech down, it will inflict a second injury.

- Eck

You looked at the code, but something is broken outside of it.
As soon as the mission difficulty dynamically spikes... LRM head hits are about 8%
I can ALWAYS tell when it is about to happen. The enemy force will have 100% armor... LRM headshots inbound all macth long, many pilots hurt,
When I see the enemy force have "unmaintained" units (ooh look, I can one shot a manticore), yeah 1%.

I suspect this is what is causing the "confirmation bias" defense, as well as the, yeah I looked at 1000 LRM salvos, head hits are within statistical tolerance.
But what you'll really see is 1% most of the time, and then a match where you are getting rekt by LRM headshots followed with the "you're just unlucky" goofiness when you show up on the forums.
 

Varkin

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You looked at the code, but something is broken outside of it.
As soon as the mission difficulty dynamically spikes... LRM head hits are about 8%
I can ALWAYS tell when it is about to happen. The enemy force will have 100% armor... LRM headshots inbound all macth long, many pilots hurt,
When I see the enemy force have "unmaintained" units (ooh look, I can one shot a manticore), yeah 1%.

I suspect this is what is causing the "confirmation bias" defense, as well as the, yeah I looked at 1000 LRM salvos, head hits are within statistical tolerance.
But what you'll really see is 1% most of the time, and then a match where you are getting rekt by LRM headshots followed with the "you're just unlucky" goofiness when you show up on the forums.

So I did some parsing of my log files today, figuring out how everything was set up there to get numbers from in game as hard numbers. What I found is LRMS are not the hitting more often to the head. If you want to freak out, complain about SRMs. That is the true head hit nightmare. This is the total number of head hits from my last session, both incoming and outgoing. 1600 weapon hits(eg: 1 LRM missile hit is 1 hit. 1 m laser hit 1 hit).

This is the breakdown:
LRMs - 2 head hits.
SRMs - 8 head hits.
Melee - 1 head hit.
M Laser - 3 head hits.

The 2 LRM hits were from the first missile in the volley the SRM hits some were some weren't. 14 out of 1600 hits were head hits.
 

Setanta777

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IIRC, the clustering effect breaks the volley down in to groups of 5. The first missile in a group has a chance to hit the head. If it misses, so will the next 4. This means an LRM 20 has 4 chances to land at least one head hit, while an LRM 5 has one.
 

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I was right about the only one MechWarrior injury per volley of fire. So if you have a volley of fire that cooks the ammo, hits the head twice, and blows up two torsos, that's lumped up into one injury. And then if that knocks your mech down, it will inflict a second injury.
Does it work as designed or is it a bug (meaning there should be 4 injuries, instead of 2)?