Low Countries: Why Drenthe should NEVER be added.

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tinholt

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Reworked (pretty) Netherlands in post below this one(modded)


Let's revisit the land of the Swamp Germans, the Low Countries. Instead of asking Paradox to add more provinces to the Netherlands (Don't worry @Trin Tragula, I won't try) which Paradox won't be doing anytime soon:

We appreciate any thread with suggestions for the map of the regions our game cover and as always I follow the discussion with interest.
However, we are not at this time looking to improve the European map. 1.20 will focus on East Asia.
If/when we do touch up Europe again we will revisit all threads like these for inspiration.
That said I also want to mention the Low Countries and the Rhine area currently have the highest province densities in the game. In some cases, the reason we don't cover certain things is that we don't believe we have space to do it in an acceptable way for vanilla. The map is this game's most important interface and needs to be clear enough to read and clickable enough to use in all places.
This is why we have never added Jüllich for instance. Much as I'd love to see it in the game.

Still, when I made the Vanilla Overhaul Map Mod 3 years ago Paradox assured me they wouldn't add any new provinces to the game (province count was 1750 as opposed to the 4150+ provinces we'll probably have by the time Third Rome comes knocking). Ahumm... so let's smother this baby in its crib before it ever sees the light of day.

Drenthe should not be added to the game. *

Arguments for adding Drenthe to the game:
The_Low_Countries.png

468px-Political_map_of_the_Low_Countries_%281350%29-NL.svg.png


These two maps. All discussions on the region so far have used these two maps to argue for adding more provinces to the Netherlands. What normally happens is that You'll see province of Oversticht (Overijssel + Drenthe) added to the game, or both Drenthe and Overijssel. Then the Holland is split between North & South. Why? Because in history Drenthe was a province. Right? Yes, but not the way you think it was.


Arguments against adding Drenthe to the Netherlands:

Let's start out with some history; Drenthe is the poorest province in the Lower Countries, and always has been . But, why is it so poor? We have to go back 10,000 years. There was an ice sheet covering most of the Northern-Netherlands when this ice sheet retreated this left a lot of sand and rocks in the area, over time the sand was carried away by rivers and left marshes and river plains. These were reclaimed and turned into fertile farmlands through the 9th to 11th century. However, Drenthe by that time was still an island dune area. Hard to farm and seen as barren lands. The local populace subsisted from farming and the ever so often herding of cattle. This was until in 944 was banned in the Drenthe by the bishopric of Utrecht who claimed the land as their personal hunting ground (while still being under the control of the Duke of Lotharingia). The province lost most of its population in the decades after and all land reclamation was halted. The province was later gifted to the Bishopric (Now Prince Bishopric) of Utrecht. The Bishopric tried establishing a parish on the old grounds of Coevorden, but these efforts were thwarted by the Bishopric of Munster years later.

Heideelspeet.JPG

Netherlands-geological+map.png

The 12th century marked the decline of the Prince-Bishopric of Utrecht. Holland, Gelre and the Frisian lords were slowly encroaching on the bishoprics territory. Groningen, which by then had grown powerful enough to declare themselves a city-state (never ratified by the Holy Emperor) started setting their eyes on Drenthe and established Esdorpen (villages that used organic material to slowly fertilize sandy lands and allow for agriculture) Beilen, Dwingeloo, Diever, Orvelte, Assen, Emmen, Exloo, Oosterhesselen and Gees. All which had a larger population then than the capital of Assen chosen in most mods (then the capital wasn't Assen, there was no Capital. Coevorden was the only place with city rights.. But, the city didn't have any inhabitants... Ghost town? Haha). But, because the ground was still barren most of these villagers spend their winters in Groningen. And would constitute most of the province population at the time. These villages were still, however, too poor to be taxated and would require a lot of investment from the city of Groningen over time.

At the start of the vanilla timeline (1444) Groningen is still suffering from war exhaustion. It is no longer under the protection of the bishopric of Utrecht and has expanded its sphere of influence, to include all of today's Groningen (province of the same name) and Drenthe. The end of the Great Frisian wars saw the expulsion of the Frisian lords from Groningen and most of West-Frisia. Groningen would come to align itself with the Holy Roman Empire, and would become ever more hostile towards East-Frisia who harbored pirates which after the Great Frisian wars also started coming after Groningen's traders. It further developed the Drenthe's lands and started taxing them accordingly.

Then during the great Gelrian wars (prelude to the Dutch Revolt) Groningen together with Drenthe revolted against the Habsburgs.

Nederlanden_1538.png


Groningen by then controlled all Friesland, Ommeland and for 200 years the few villages in Drenthe were under the administration of Groningen (though "received humanitarian aid" would be more fitting than "administered"). Under the administration of the 17 Provinces (Netherlands)
Map_of_the_Habsburg_Netherlands_by_Alexis-Marie_Gochet.png

Greater_Groningen_%C2%B11500.png


Under the Dutch Republic Drenthe was made a province. But, the reason is a bit.. laughable. Even though it was made a province, it wasn't integrated into the union. Rather, it was made into a non-taxable district due to how poor it was (I suppose you can't create a (0 . 1 . 1 ) province in the HRE?) This remained for the entirety of the Dutch Republic. At the end of the 18th century, we see the creation of multiple peat-colonies, and would see a steady increase in population in the till then almost uninhabited province of Drenthe.

Assen (the now capital of the province) would see play at the start of the 19th century when Lodewijk Napoleon established his summer retreat there, the then village gained city rights(he didn't like The Hague.. He was rather arbitrary) and Napoleon used it as a base to start taxing Drenthe to gather funds for his brother's war campaign (talk about scraping the barrel much) . After the formation of the Dutch Kingdom Assen remained the capital of Drenthe, but the province wasn't taxed. Rather, the peat farmed war taxed instead. This lasted till the end of the 19th century, by then with the introduction of artificial fertilizer it became possible to further exploit the province.



tl;dr

Drenthe was poor. The population was too poor to tax. It was mainly under the administration of the city of Groningen. Its population never reached 10,000 until the province was exploited for peat. Assen was established by Napoleon at the end of the campaign's timeline and the only other city possible to be become it's capital was Coevorden which was a very unlucky fortification/ village which never had a population more than the 1,400 Munsterian soldiers that drowned there.


edit: Yes. I know.. And no, this is not reverse psychology *rolls eyes*
 
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demanvanwezel

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You can certainly represent Holland and Friesland as marshland. Great draining only started to happening when all the lakes were drained and made polders, which happened in the 17th century.
Drenthe and Groningen both contained a lot of marshland as well, so I think it is fine to have them as marches.

Do you actually know that the province of Limburg never belonged to the Dutch republic? The Republic only controlled the fortified city of Maastricht (which blocked passage through the Maas valley) and some other towns in it. The rest were dominions of the Holy Roman Emperor, if I'm right. Therefore, the whole thing is hard to give a historically proper place.

the dutch republic never controlled maastricht, maastricht was part of the county of loon which was part of the prince-bishopric of liege

at the congress of vienna it together with the rest of the lowlands was assigned to the kingdom of the netherlands, during the belgian revolution the garrison repulsed the belgian attack and was thus made part of the netherlands after the treaty of london (similar story with luxembourgh)

the duchy of limburg itself was partitioned at the congress of vienna and largely became a part of the prussian rhineland (the rest became part of liege), after WW1 that part was added to belgium and currently forms the german speaking east-cantons in belgium

curiously: what is currently known as limburg mostly has nothing to do with the historical duchy, the only part of belgian limburg that was ever part of the historic duchy is the department of voeren which is only part of limburg since 1977, the rest all belonged to the county of loon, the french first united the 2 under a different name and the dutch simply renamed it to it's most prestigious name

800px-3limburgen.png


red: belgian limburg
orange: dutch limburg
purple: historic duchy of limburg
 

tinholt

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I very much like you work but I disagree with your last point

den bosh was the capital of one of the 4 quarters which made up the duchy of brabant (the others were leuven, antwerpen and brussel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meierij_van_'s-Hertogenbosch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brabant#Cities_of_Brabant

the dutch republic never controlled maastricht, maastricht was part of the county of loon which was part of the prince-bishopric of liege

Other points you have to take in mind.

Does adding the province add anything to the history files? Does it help in creating more well-balanced and historically accurate map? I would say no, as through the entirety of the campaign these provinces are controlled by the same owner. Doesn't seem the case.

All I'm arguing for is that dividing up the province of Breda/ North-Brabant shouldn't happen. Before the game starts the region, apart from the most western part was a commercial backwater, and the eastern portion only decreased in overall wealth during the game's timeframe. Which makes sense, the Dutch Republic was focused on trade. And Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch) due to the meandering of the river Maas no longer had proper access to the river and was unable to properly use its ports. And even though it had imposing defenses, they still fell. And weren't properly restored. Cities like Eindhoven and Tilburg saw their fortifications abandoned entirely during the 80 years war.

In my mod 's Hertogenbosch is still the capital, but Breda is the port. Even though, Breda, was considered "Het Haagje van het Zuiden". Which translates to "The Hague (The Court) of the South". Which makes sense, as that area is where most development took place and where the Polder communities held their meetings. Polders, again, are also administrative divisions that had their own political structure.



Except for city-states and bishoprics, provinces should probably have 2 cities to be able to fall back on.

Lower Countries - Dutch Republic
  1. Holland - The Hague (Capital), Amsterdam (Port) // If split go to 1A & 1B
    1a. North Holland - Amsterdam (C), Enkhuizen (P) // Haarlem had a larger administering role in the province than Amsterdam. This had nothing to do with it's power, but more because the region had to endure from storms and tornadoes that damaged the area from time to time. These formed above the Haarlemmermeer, which was later reclaimed.
    1b. South Holland - The Hague (Country Capital of the Dutch Republic as well as province capital, it's not Amsterdam), Rotterdam (P) // Other big cities were of course Delft
  2. Zeeland - Middelburg (C), Reimerswaal (P) => After St. Felix flood it's Zierikzee.
  3. Nedersticht - Utrecht (Bishopric)
  4. Breda - 's-Hertogenbosch (C), Breda (P+De-facto Capital)
  5. Gelre - Zwolle (C), Harderwijk (P) // Arnhem (DC)
    5a. Gelre -Zutphen (C), Harderwijk (P)
    5b. Oversticht/ Overijssel - Zwolle (C), Kampen (P) // I would make Deventer a port as it was a Hansa city, but it would be an inland port (not supported by EU4) Owned by Bishopric of Utrecht. Kampen will have to do. The problem is, however with the silting of the IJssel it will become less prosperous from trade. While Deventer is untouched as it can easily reach the Sea through the Rhine and is located on a natural harbor. Same happened to Brugge, but more extreme.
  6. Frisia
    6a. Frisia - Leeuwwarden (C), Harlingen (P)
    6b. Stad & Ommeland - Groningen (City-state) // Includes Drenthe
  7. Limburg - Maastricht (C) // The city of Venlo was basically the rival city to Cologne for the region's trade, but lost it's power over time due to the Hansa declining in power.

On Maastricht... I could even tell you by year when it was controlled by the Dutch Republic (Dutch Revolt). 1566 - 1579 then again from 1632 till the end of the campaign (It was occupied twice in 1673 and in 1748. That's why whole reason it was given back at the Treaty of London (1839) because it was part of the Dutch Republic and Kingdom of the Netherlands for most of its history. I know its kind of unwieldy sticking out like that... But, Maastricht was basically the place you'd cross the River Maas. What you see in the game is basically what in real life would be: Staats Opper-Gelre, Staats Overmaas and some baronies combined together.

DemanvanwezelIf you're telling me Maastrict de facto was still part of Spanish Netherlands, Liege or France. I'll believe you on your word. /sarcasm

I personally don't mind splitting up Limburg and create Maastricht and Venlo (Staats Overmaas/ Staats Opper-Gelre). Though both cities wouldn't change ownership, you'd only have to change who occupied it in the history files as stated above. Though, I remember that Paradox gives the province to Spanish Netherlands in the game. Which makes sense only in that they didn't properly draw the province like most other provinces in the Low Countries... I mean, even Antwerpen didn't have a port in the first few patches. It was an inland centre of trade until it got changed. Haha
 

demanvanwezel

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Other points you have to take in mind.

Does adding the province add anything to the history files? Does it help in creating more well-balanced and historically accurate map? I would say no, as through the entirety of the campaign these provinces are controlled by the same owner. Doesn't seem the case.

All I'm arguing for is that dividing up the province of Breda/ North-Brabant shouldn't happen. Before the game starts the region, apart from the most western part was a commercial backwater, and the eastern portion only decreased in overall wealth during the game's timeframe. Which makes sense, the Dutch Republic was focused on trade. And Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch) due to the meandering of the river Maas no longer had proper access to the river and was unable to properly use its ports. And even though it had imposing defenses, they still fell. And weren't properly restored. Cities like Eindhoven and Tilburg saw their fortifications abandoned entirely during the 80 years war.

In my mod 's Hertogenbosch is still the capital, but Breda is the port. Even though, Breda, was considered "Het Haagje van het Zuiden". Which translates to "The Hague (The Court) of the South". Which makes sense, as that area is where most development took place and where the Polder communities held their meetings. Polders, again, are also administrative divisions that had their own political structure.



Except for city-states and bishoprics, provinces should probably have 2 cities to be able to fall back on.

Lower Countries - Dutch Republic
  1. Holland - The Hague (Capital), Amsterdam (Port) // If split go to 1A & 1B
    1a. North Holland - Amsterdam (C), Enkhuizen (P) // Haarlem had a larger administering role in the province than Amsterdam. This had nothing to do with it's power, but more because the region had to endure from storms and tornadoes that damaged the area from time to time. These formed above the Haarlemmermeer, which was later reclaimed.
    1b. South Holland - The Hague (Country Capital of the Dutch Republic as well as province capital, it's not Amsterdam), Rotterdam (P) // Other big cities were of course Delft
  2. Zeeland - Middelburg (C), Reimerswaal (P) => After St. Felix flood it's Zierikzee.
  3. Nedersticht - Utrecht (Bishopric)
  4. Breda - 's-Hertogenbosch (C), Breda (P+De-facto Capital)
  5. Gelre - Zwolle (C), Harderwijk (P) // Arnhem (DC)
    5a. Gelre -Zutphen (C), Harderwijk (P)
    5b. Oversticht/ Overijssel - Zwolle (C), Kampen (P) // I would make Deventer a port as it was a Hansa city, but it would be an inland port (not supported by EU4) Owned by Bishopric of Utrecht. Kampen will have to do. The problem is, however with the silting of the IJssel it will become less prosperous from trade. While Deventer is untouched as it can easily reach the Sea through the Rhine and is located on a natural harbor. Same happened to Brugge, but more extreme.
  6. Frisia
    6a. Frisia - Leeuwwarden (C), Harlingen (P)
    6b. Stad & Ommeland - Groningen (City-state) // Includes Drenthe
  7. Limburg - Maastricht (C) // The city of Venlo was basically the rival city to Cologne for the region's trade, but lost it's power over time due to the Hansa declining in power.

On Maastricht... I could even tell you by year when it was controlled by the Dutch Republic (Dutch Revolt). 1566 - 1579 then again from 1632 till the end of the campaign (It was occupied twice in 1673 and in 1748. That's why whole reason it was given back at the Treaty of London (1839) because it was part of the Dutch Republic and Kingdom of the Netherlands for most of its history. I know its kind of unwieldy sticking out like that... But, Maastricht was basically the place you'd cross the River Maas. What you see in the game is basically what in real life would be: Staats Opper-Gelre, Staats Overmaas and some baronies combined together.

DemanvanwezelIf you're telling me Maastrict de facto was still part of Spanish Netherlands, Liege or France. I'll believe you on your word. /sarcasm

I personally don't mind splitting up Limburg and create Maastricht and Venlo (Staats Overmaas/ Staats Opper-Gelre). Though both cities wouldn't change ownership, you'd only have to change who occupied it in the history files as stated above. Though, I remember that Paradox gives the province to Spanish Netherlands in the game. Which makes sense only in that they didn't properly draw the province like most other provinces in the Low Countries... I mean, even Antwerpen didn't have a port in the first few patches. It was an inland centre of trade until it got changed. Haha


huh, I learned something new today

I always though that maastricht was just a part of the county of loon under liege, never knew it was fought over that much or that it was once part of the dutch republic

another thing: how would you culturally divide up the netherlands?
with the disapearance of burgundian I think it's time for a new division, brabantian was only the beginning (then again I might be biased because I wanted to put burgundian, lorraine, walloon and picard in a seperate culture group :D )
 

tinholt

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huh, I learned something new today

I always though that maastricht was just a part of the county of loon under liege, never knew it was fought over that much or that it was once part of the dutch republic

another thing: how would you culturally divide up the netherlands?
with the disapearance of burgundian I think it's time for a new division, brabantian was only the beginning (then again I might be biased because I wanted to put burgundian, lorraine, walloon and picard in a seperate culture group :D )

I don't like how cultures work in the game. Like I said, I'd rather just see Dutch and Flemish merged together, rather than dividing them.

It's a bit odd in a way. It has to do with nationalists more so than anything else. But, people also use the Reformed/ Christian divide as an excuse.

Technically the gap isn't different enough to merit more cultures.
 

Calanon

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Looks pretty good. Although, since you gave Zeeland Zeelandic Flanders what is the point of the straits going to Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp and Noord Brabant?

Since you said on Steam about possibly expanding the mod and also polishing, would polishing be editing some of the province names (e.g. Breda > Noord Brabant) and removing Flemish culture? Would be great to see a redone Southern Netherlands too, mostly because I really want to see a proper Cambrai.
 

tinholt

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Looks pretty good. Although, since you gave Zeeland Zeelandic Flanders what is the point of the straits going to Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp and Noord Brabant?

Since you said on Steam about possibly expanding the mod and also polishing, would polishing be editing some of the province names (e.g. Breda > Noord Brabant) and removing Flemish culture? Would be great to see a redone Southern Netherlands too, mostly because I really want to see a proper Cambrai.

The capital of Zeeland is on the big island in the south. A bit hard to cross. And thus I made it a strait. I'm looking into it now. Trying to get some kind of system going for proper borders though, as it Belgium even nowadays is a chaos.
 

Calanon

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The capital of Zeeland is on the big island in the south. A bit hard to cross. And thus I made it a strait. I'm looking into it now. Trying to get some kind of system going for proper borders though, as it Belgium even nowadays is a chaos.
Mechanically it seems to be a bit pointless right now since the province itself has a land border. Also one of the ports had bad positioning and is in the middle of Zeeland.

I'm running an observer game right now with it for funsies, it's 1492 and Poland has ceased to exist.
 

oim8

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I'm usually strongly against making more city-sized provinces for WE while there are still empire-sized Siberian provinces, but hey, I really would support making a 3 dev desert province in the Netherlands just this one time because every tenth thread or so seems to boil down to MOAR DUTCH PROVINCEZ
 

Zerodv

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I'm usually strongly against making more city-sized provinces for WE while there are still empire-sized Siberian provinces, but hey, I really would support making a 3 dev desert province in the Netherlands just this one time because every tenth thread or so seems to boil down to MOAR DUTCH PROVINCEZ
Are you joking right? Siberia is actually oversaturated with provinces, with most provinces being in places where less people lived than the army people march trough.

Better have Drenthe(a stupid useless provinces) than more Siberian provinces.
 

oim8

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Are you joking right? Siberia is actually oversaturated with provinces, with most provinces being in places where less people lived than the army people march trough.

Better have Drenthe(a stupid useless provinces) than more Siberian provinces.

No. Enough distinct tribes occupied Siberia to warrant more provinces than what there is now. With the awful modifiers Siberian land has, I don't think it'd make any one country too powerful for controlling it all.

But yeah, I'd rather have them implement Drenthe than any serious addition to the Netherlands just out of spite for the constant moaning, though.
 

Zerodv

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No. Enough distinct tribes occupied Siberia to warrant more provinces than what there is now. With the awful modifiers Siberian land has, I don't think it'd make any one country too powerful for controlling it all.

But yeah, I'd rather have them implement Drenthe than any serious addition to the Netherlands just out of spite for the constant moaning, though.
Tribes that if made historicall shouldn´t be able to field even 1 regiment, nto able to conquer anything and destined to be conquered by the first Southern Turko/Mongolian khanate or Russia. Siberia has way too many provinces, not too little.
 

oim8

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Tribes that if made historicall shouldn´t be able to field even 1 regiment, nto able to conquer anything and destined to be conquered by the first Southern Turko/Mongolian khanate or Russia. Siberia has way too many provinces, not too little.

Why would you make anything in this game "destined"? What's the point of playing it at all then? If everything is supposed to be historical, just don't even bother making any nation playable, lest the player make an "unhistorical" choice. Why would someone pay $330 + for the full game if you don't have control over anything? If anyone involved in developing this game took your advice, they'd be out hungry on the street at month's end.
 

Zerodv

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Why would you make anything in this game "destined"? What's the point of playing it at all then? If everything is supposed to be historical, just don't even bother making any nation playable, lest the player make an "unhistorical" choice. Why would someone pay $330 + for the full game if you don't have control over anything? If anyone involved in developing this game took your advice, they'd be out hungry on the street at month's end.
Byzantium was not made easier to make it more playable, same goes for the Siberian tribes currently, they are unplayable and giving them more provinces won´t help.

And again when 80% of the provinces are not colonized what´s the point of adding more? China still would need more than Siberia, or India.
 

Tue_p3

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Best thread title I've seen in this forum. My opinion on on the Dutch provinces (without reading the whole thread, excuse me). I would like Holland to be a OPM nation so it can be added in merchant republic's. Therefore I like to see Zeeland to be added to some other province. Maybe Antwerp. Because if you control zeeland, you control Antwerp. (Cut off the Schelde and watch the Flemish get angry).

The addition of the Zuiderzee is a must-have, because there have been serious naval battles there.