Low Countries: Why Drenthe should NEVER be added.

Low Countries: Why Drenthe should NEVER be added.

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tinholt

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Reworked (pretty) Netherlands in post below this one(modded)


Let's revisit the land of the Swamp Germans, the Low Countries. Instead of asking Paradox to add more provinces to the Netherlands (Don't worry @Trin Tragula, I won't try) which Paradox won't be doing anytime soon:

We appreciate any thread with suggestions for the map of the regions our game cover and as always I follow the discussion with interest.
However, we are not at this time looking to improve the European map. 1.20 will focus on East Asia.
If/when we do touch up Europe again we will revisit all threads like these for inspiration.
That said I also want to mention the Low Countries and the Rhine area currently have the highest province densities in the game. In some cases, the reason we don't cover certain things is that we don't believe we have space to do it in an acceptable way for vanilla. The map is this game's most important interface and needs to be clear enough to read and clickable enough to use in all places.
This is why we have never added Jüllich for instance. Much as I'd love to see it in the game.

Still, when I made the Vanilla Overhaul Map Mod 3 years ago Paradox assured me they wouldn't add any new provinces to the game (province count was 1750 as opposed to the 4150+ provinces we'll probably have by the time Third Rome comes knocking). Ahumm... so let's smother this baby in its crib before it ever sees the light of day.

Drenthe should not be added to the game. *

Arguments for adding Drenthe to the game:
The_Low_Countries.png

468px-Political_map_of_the_Low_Countries_%281350%29-NL.svg.png


These two maps. All discussions on the region so far have used these two maps to argue for adding more provinces to the Netherlands. What normally happens is that You'll see province of Oversticht (Overijssel + Drenthe) added to the game, or both Drenthe and Overijssel. Then the Holland is split between North & South. Why? Because in history Drenthe was a province. Right? Yes, but not the way you think it was.


Arguments against adding Drenthe to the Netherlands:

Let's start out with some history; Drenthe is the poorest province in the Lower Countries, and always has been . But, why is it so poor? We have to go back 10,000 years. There was an ice sheet covering most of the Northern-Netherlands when this ice sheet retreated this left a lot of sand and rocks in the area, over time the sand was carried away by rivers and left marshes and river plains. These were reclaimed and turned into fertile farmlands through the 9th to 11th century. However, Drenthe by that time was still an island dune area. Hard to farm and seen as barren lands. The local populace subsisted from farming and the ever so often herding of cattle. This was until in 944 was banned in the Drenthe by the bishopric of Utrecht who claimed the land as their personal hunting ground (while still being under the control of the Duke of Lotharingia). The province lost most of its population in the decades after and all land reclamation was halted. The province was later gifted to the Bishopric (Now Prince Bishopric) of Utrecht. The Bishopric tried establishing a parish on the old grounds of Coevorden, but these efforts were thwarted by the Bishopric of Munster years later.

Heideelspeet.JPG

Netherlands-geological+map.png

The 12th century marked the decline of the Prince-Bishopric of Utrecht. Holland, Gelre and the Frisian lords were slowly encroaching on the bishoprics territory. Groningen, which by then had grown powerful enough to declare themselves a city-state (never ratified by the Holy Emperor) started setting their eyes on Drenthe and established Esdorpen (villages that used organic material to slowly fertilize sandy lands and allow for agriculture) Beilen, Dwingeloo, Diever, Orvelte, Assen, Emmen, Exloo, Oosterhesselen and Gees. All which had a larger population then than the capital of Assen chosen in most mods (then the capital wasn't Assen, there was no Capital. Coevorden was the only place with city rights.. But, the city didn't have any inhabitants... Ghost town? Haha). But, because the ground was still barren most of these villagers spend their winters in Groningen. And would constitute most of the province population at the time. These villages were still, however, too poor to be taxated and would require a lot of investment from the city of Groningen over time.

At the start of the vanilla timeline (1444) Groningen is still suffering from war exhaustion. It is no longer under the protection of the bishopric of Utrecht and has expanded its sphere of influence, to include all of today's Groningen (province of the same name) and Drenthe. The end of the Great Frisian wars saw the expulsion of the Frisian lords from Groningen and most of West-Frisia. Groningen would come to align itself with the Holy Roman Empire, and would become ever more hostile towards East-Frisia who harbored pirates which after the Great Frisian wars also started coming after Groningen's traders. It further developed the Drenthe's lands and started taxing them accordingly.

Then during the great Gelrian wars (prelude to the Dutch Revolt) Groningen together with Drenthe revolted against the Habsburgs.

Nederlanden_1538.png


Groningen by then controlled all Friesland, Ommeland and for 200 years the few villages in Drenthe were under the administration of Groningen (though "received humanitarian aid" would be more fitting than "administered"). Under the administration of the 17 Provinces (Netherlands)
Map_of_the_Habsburg_Netherlands_by_Alexis-Marie_Gochet.png

Greater_Groningen_%C2%B11500.png


Under the Dutch Republic Drenthe was made a province. But, the reason is a bit.. laughable. Even though it was made a province, it wasn't integrated into the union. Rather, it was made into a non-taxable district due to how poor it was (I suppose you can't create a (0 . 1 . 1 ) province in the HRE?) This remained for the entirety of the Dutch Republic. At the end of the 18th century, we see the creation of multiple peat-colonies, and would see a steady increase in population in the till then almost uninhabited province of Drenthe.

Assen (the now capital of the province) would see play at the start of the 19th century when Lodewijk Napoleon established his summer retreat there, the then village gained city rights(he didn't like The Hague.. He was rather arbitrary) and Napoleon used it as a base to start taxing Drenthe to gather funds for his brother's war campaign (talk about scraping the barrel much) . After the formation of the Dutch Kingdom Assen remained the capital of Drenthe, but the province wasn't taxed. Rather, the peat farmed war taxed instead. This lasted till the end of the 19th century, by then with the introduction of artificial fertilizer it became possible to further exploit the province.



tl;dr

Drenthe was poor. The population was too poor to tax. It was mainly under the administration of the city of Groningen. Its population never reached 10,000 until the province was exploited for peat. Assen was established by Napoleon at the end of the campaign's timeline and the only other city possible to be become it's capital was Coevorden which was a very unlucky fortification/ village which never had a population more than the 1,400 Munsterian soldiers that drowned there.


edit: Yes. I know.. And no, this is not reverse psychology *rolls eyes*
 
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This thread is more than 5 months old.

It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose. If you feel it is necessary to make a new reply, you can still do so though.

tinholt

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KQZ67eH.jpg


This is an outdated concept from 1.4. If you've ever played my Vanilla Map Rehaul it should look familiar. But, please ignore the extra province of Zuiderzee here.

What I changed on this map, and why:

- Zeeland is an actual island, and thus if you have naval superiority can be blockaded.
land-reclamation-on-the-north-sea-coast-map.jpg

In the spoiler, I added a map of the amount of land reclamation that happened from the 18th throughout the 20th century. Back then there was no land connection to Middelburg and thus was entirely disconnected from the rest of the Low Countries. Its name is literally "Land of the Ocean" / "Island". This is how it would have looked like in 1300.

thumbnail-by-url.json

0e8e9789529329b86397502bcd89ea56.jpg



Bevelant would be the most narrow crossing, however, the dikes were easily breached. As the land was reclaimed only recently at the end of the 13th century. Basically isolating the main settlements on the island of Walcheren. So, if the enemy doesn't have naval superiority in the area it should be impossible to reach Middelburg.


- Holland can only be reached by land through Utrecht. Entering it from Breda or Friesland would require crossing an ocean. The cities of The Hague ( 's - Gravenhage) and Amsterdam can both be cut off from the rest of the Lower Countries by breaching the dikes, which happened in the Dutch Revolt, effectively guaranteeing the safety of its citizens. The only province in Holland that can't be protected using this tactic is the city of Haarlem. Below you can see the area of the Netherlands that was inundated (drowned) in the event an army was making its way to either the Hague or Amsterdam. The lower image was constructed during the 17th century. Effectively making the entire province of Holland an island (including Haarlem this time).

250px-Oude-hollandse-waterlinie.png

250px-Nieuwe_Hollandse_Waterlinie_the_Netherlands.png


- Please ignore the Zuiderzee.

These are some very easy ways to improve the Netherlands, without adding provinces.



edit:

Just wanted to add this:

above_below_sealevel.jpg
 
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tinholt

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If I were to add provinces (again, this is from version 1.4)
c6NAMgK.png


I would add 2 provinces.

(1) Oversticht (Nowadays called Overijssel, and should probably be called Overijssel if the Netherlands is united and not a theocracy), capital Zwolle)
(2) Stad & Ommeland, capital Groningen. (New capital ofFriesland is Leeuwarden) Stad & Ommelands translation is City and surrounding territories. Because it was a city state the lands around it were directly owned by the city, which made it unique.

I would combine Oversticht and Drenthe in CK2. But, in EU4 it makes more sense for this set-up.

Some people would like to see the province of Holland be broken up into North & South. But, how the Dutch Republic (Seven United Provinces) was governed by the Estates General it gave more power to Holland by staying united. For EU4 this would merely be a detail though. I'm fine either way. Just saying I personally wouldn't add it.

But, if you're going to add them then the nothern part should have Amsterdam as its capital, and the southern part 's Gravenhage (The Hague) and the Southern part should be the capital of the Netherlands, as 's Gravenhage originally was. Changed in 1813 during the time of Lodewijk Napoleon (French puppet state). For a short time, it was Utrecht.

800px-Republiek_der_Zeven_Verenigde_Nederlanden.svg.png
 
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tinholt

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Anything I missed?


Also,

@Paradox devs, if you promise me not to ever add Drenthe you can change the thread title to: Low Countries: Land of the Swamp Germans [IN-DEPTH]


Some off-hand comments:

  1. Wallonian is not a culture, should be Walloon. Flemish and Dutch aren't far apart enough to be different cultures either, certainly not in 1444. Most cities above the Rhine were founded by Vikings who not so much invaded as settled the area to trade with the "Flemish" who later on completed adjusted to southern customs.
  2. Future ~
 
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Calanon

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Even though I've added Drenthe in my mod and I once suggested it amongst other changes, I agree with you. I'll be satisfied even with just the addition of Overijssel, although Groningen too would be fantastic.

As for Zeeland I believe there were balance reasons or something as to why they haven't made it more accurate.
 

tinholt

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Even though I've added Drenthe in my mod and I once suggested it amongst other changes, I agree with you. I'll be satisfied even with just the addition of Overijssel, although Groningen too would be fantastic.

As for Zeeland I believe there were balance reasons or something as to why they haven't made it more accurate.

Are you talking about your better Europe mod? Not half bad. Still, I would choose for adding the province of Bentheim/ Groningen Arlon over Drenthe. Always. Your map isn't half bad. I'm just afraid people add the province just because it is decently sized for a province and only that reason. As I can't think of a better reason.


The reason why I'm arguing for not adding it is because.. Well, shock? Either that or spite. Haha.

Back in version 1.4 we had very few provinces to work with. A mere 1800 compares to 4200 we have now. Back then we were told we should expect any provinces to be added to the game, as it would slow down the game. So, my objective back then was using those 1800 provinces. Re-arrange them (give more to India and China). So, all I can do now is argue in favor of what I did back then.

I would rehaul the map to my liking, without adding any provinces again if I had the help. But, if I have to take expect another thousand provinces are going to be added over the upcoming 1-2 years I'd rather not. Back then our doctrine was as follows: Does the province or the cities within have enough substance to merit a new province? Or back then: are there any reasons against deleting the province all together and freeing up space for other additions. Balance, history and flavour all have to be kept in mind when adding provinces. I'm not a big fan of adding provinces because it makes the game more fun. I'd rather wage war for a kingdom/region than two halves of one.
 

Mattymooz

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The main reasoning for adding that province is due to the shape of utrecht during this time period:

Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_1400.png
250px-Locator_Prince-Bishopric_of_Utrecht_%281350%29.svg.png


I have more sources if these 2 aint good enough :p Adding a province that added the shape above imo would be very valuable. Yes it won't be very rich and yes it may have relied on Groningen, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a province there. Heck, most of England relied on London to survive, does that mean we should only have one England province?
 

Calanon

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Yeah, that's my mod, although I changed the name to Expanded Europe and that post is outdated now. I am planning to revise some of the stuff, probably after Third Rome has been released.

And yeah, slightly surprising title to come across, but considering how resistant they've been to Overijsel I can't see it being added soon. :p
 

tinholt

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The main reasoning for adding that province is due to the shape of utrecht during this time period:

Images
Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_1400.png
250px-Locator_Prince-Bishopric_of_Utrecht_%281350%29.svg.png

I have more sources if these 2 aint good enough :p Adding a province that added the shape above imo would be very valuable. Yes it won't be very rich and yes it may have relied on Groningen, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a province there. Heck, most of England relied on London to survive, does that mean we should only have one England province?


Like I wanted to say: I'm all for an Oversticht that includes Drenthe if the game was set before the 14th century. Coevorden was abolished as a title before the end of the 14th century and abandoned it. Groningen by the start of the game is no longer part of Oversticht and has been independent at least a century before the game takes place. I mean, they were an independent party in the Great Frisian Wars decades before the game start. And if you're going to add Drenthe you'd end up with the dilemma of not being able to give it a proper capital.

When I say depend on Groningen... Like I said. It's not depending on another city like you'd see with the city of Reading depending on London for trade. No, the small villages in Drenthe were dependent on Groningen in the form of food. As they couldn't survive without it. Today we're used to being more lenient when it comes to taxing the poor. In those days people didn't care. Just imagine what scenario would require an entire province to be exempt from taxation. The province had 20,000 people in it when Lodewijk Napoleon declared it a province. Until then the capital was Rolde, which never acquired city rights. Rolde wasn't even a proper village. It was a church with a tavern for Groninger travelers to spend the night if they were traveling south. And calling it a church would be overstating it. Even though it was established in the 9th century, it took 700 years before the church got a church tower. And another 100 years before the rest of the church (which up till then was still made out of wood) to be made out of stone. Why was it finally made out of stone? Well, they wanted to install a pulpit (a raised stand for the preacher) which the walls of the wooden church couldn't support and thus the entire church collapsed under its weight. Later the Dutch state paid for the complete renovation.

Let's not even start with Coevorden.. Gott im himmel, may they rest in peace. Have you ever heard of the Van Coevorden, how they tried to rebuild their village and have it rise to prominence, to only have it be burned down, sacked, drowned and raided.



Yeah, that's my mod, although I changed the name to Expanded Europe and that post is outdated now. I am planning to revise some of the stuff, probably after Third Rome has been released.

And yeah, slightly surprising title to come across, but considering how resistant they've been to Overijsel I can't see it being added soon. :p

I'm happy I had to go to China when I did.. Knowing me I would have probably updated it for the 2400 provinces they added since 1.4... Haha...

Feels bad man .
 

tinholt

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Drenthe is pretty though.

94378e_5798a67f16804d908f4854f8bbd2b6c8.webp
94378e_6b5683c35e5b40d2a5e161bdc1b6a21b.webp

Even an onion or a carrot won't grow in this sand and gravel (these are inland sand dunes, left behind by the ice-sheet in the last ice-age).



Just not as productive as for example the floodplains in along the Dutch coast.
05781CMYK.jpg

61-06%20%2861-03%29CMYK.jpg

61-17%20%2861-09%29CMYK.jpg
 
Last edited:

Calanon

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On a different note. Marshland in the Netherlands was already reclaimed before the end of the 12th century...

Would plains or farmland represent Holland and Friesland better?

(Also for my own mod, Drenthe is currently marsh, would plains be better?)
 

tinholt

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On a different note. Marshland in the Netherlands was already reclaimed before the end of the 12th century... Don't know why Paradox made the decision to make it Marshy. River Plains.. The Po River Estuary still had marshes when Holland had none... I mean, the Pontine marshes even caused the death of Pope Sixtus V. How? Malaria...

Would plains or farmland represent Holland and Friesland better?

(Also for my own mod, Drenthe is currently marsh, would plains be better?)

Marshes.. I guess, sure. Woodlands would make more sense. But, the area was really hard to develop. History stands as a testament just how hard it was. So, the woodlands modifier doesn't inhibit development enough.

If you make Drenthe Marshland in your mod then the least you should change is changing the Marshland on the Hollandic and Frisian coast to some form of plains/ farmlands.


Edit: My mistake, the Netherlands does have tidal marshland. Tidal salt flats on the Island of Texel (Largest island above Holland). I mean, we tried to reclaim it and make it farmland after the second World War due to predictions Waddensea already silting up(I can scan in some documents of the project, my grandfather was one of the project leads). But, because of nature conservation movements we now spend millions yearly on to prevent from the sea turning into land...

1ppi4p.jpg
 
Last edited:

Sun_Wu

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On a different note. Marshland in the Netherlands was already reclaimed before the end of the 12th century... Don't know why Paradox made the decision to make it Marshy. River Plains.. The Po River Estuary still had marshes when Holland had none... I mean, the Pontine marshes even caused the death of Pope Sixtus V. How? Malaria...



Marshes.. I guess, sure. Woodlands would make more sense. But, the area was really hard to develop. History stands as a testament just how hard it was. So, the woodlands modifier doesn't inhibit development enough.

If you make Drenthe Marshland in your mod then the least you should change is changing the Marshland on the Hollandic and Frisian coast to some form of plains/ farmlands.


Edit: My mistake, the Netherlands does have tidal marshland. Tidal salt flats on the Island of Texel (Largest island above Holland). I mean, we tried to reclaim it and make it farmland after the second World War due to predictions Waddensea already silting up(I can scan in some documents of the project, my grandfather was one of the project leads). But, because of nature conservation movements we now spend millions yearly on to prevent from the sea turning into land...

1ppi4p.jpg
Dutch people spending money to prevent sea turning into land? Isn't that contrary to like Dutch values?
 

tinholt

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Currently the province of Limburg produces Iron. Though the only mining undertaken in the region would be done by the Abbey of Rolduc, which wasn't able to do enough exploitation of the region to actually profit from it. Most of Limburgs production at the time would be focused on Linen though, like most of the Low Countries. They also did a lot of brewing, but then again you could say that about a lot of German provinces.

The reason for current Iron set-up in Limburg has nothing to do with the EU4 timeline. It is a translation of the coal winning in the region during the 19th century. Which wasn't a lot compared to the Southern Netherlands. Basically the Oostkantons / Eupen-Malmedy; these places would see a lot of mining.

578px-Karte_Ostbelgien.svg.png


The entire region doesn't really make sense when it comes to trade-goods. I would like to know where Paradox gets their sources, and whether it was just a translation of Victoria 2 in what specific provinces produce. As that would make sense. Especially with Holland and Frisia producing Fish. After Napoleon the Netherlands was really poor, and didn't do so well with adapting these new technologies. Belgium on the other hand was a lot richer and could rival Britain in production prowess.

Sadly, there is not a large amount of trade good to chose from.

On another note. The province of Limburg on the map is really nudged far back South. And, in a sense is only hanging on to the Netherlands. Here are some maps pertaining to Limburg. You should have already seen how I would like to do it in my other posts pertaining to Drenthe or following up on the Netherlands.

800px-Political_map_of_Limburg_%281350%29-NL.svg.png

583px-3Limburgen.svg.png


It's odd. Paradox, why you do this?


https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschiedenis_van_Limburg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolduc
 

Dutchman251

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Would plains or farmland represent Holland and Friesland better?

(Also for my own mod, Drenthe is currently marsh, would plains be better?)
You can certainly represent Holland and Friesland as marshland. Great draining only started to happening when all the lakes were drained and made polders, which happened in the 17th century.
Drenthe and Groningen both contained a lot of marshland as well, so I think it is fine to have them as marches.
On another note. The province of Limburg on the map is really nudged far back South
Do you actually know that the province of Limburg never belonged to the Dutch republic? The Republic only controlled the fortified city of Maastricht (which blocked passage through the Maas valley) and some other towns in it. The rest were dominions of the Holy Roman Emperor, if I'm right. Therefore, the whole thing is hard to give a historically proper place.
 

tinholt

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You can certainly represent Holland and Friesland as marshland. Great draining only started to happening when all the lakes were drained and made polders, which happened in the 17th century.
Drenthe and Groningen both contained a lot of marshland as well, so I think it is fine to have them as marches.

Do you actually know that the province of Limburg never belonged to the Dutch republic? The Republic only controlled the fortified city of Maastricht (which blocked passage through the Maas valley) and some other towns in it. The rest were dominions of the Holy Roman Emperor, if I'm right. Therefore, the whole thing is hard to give a historically proper place.

Not in the EU4 timeline, the beginning of the CK2 timeline, sure. The saltmarshes along the Netherlandic coast (including Flemish Netherlands here) were covered with immense flocks of sheep (IMMENSE!!!) But, as demand for wool decreased and Northern-England wool was becoming cheaper the production was changed to meat and milk (no, not sheep milk). By then these salt marshes had already undergone a dramatic change in image and composition, becoming basically what you'd nowadays call meadows. At the start of the 12th century these regions were
diked up and you saw the formation of organized polder communities. It was such a success that even the Bishop of Bremen asked for Flemish settlers (Dutch and Flemish were the same in that period.. Arguably still is) to come to Hamburg to develop dikes in the area.

What you must understand is that by the time EU4 comes knocking most of the region's population lived in cities. Which only further increase the demand for food. A lot of money was invested in developing the land. They even collected ash and leather scrappings in cities and turn it into compost for the land. A proud tradition continued even today.

Well, Spanish Netherlands, by then it was no longer controlled by the Austrians. You basically had what is now Spanish Gelre, which used to be Upper-Gelre. And some independent Baronies. But, then again you also had Lingen being part of the Netherlands. And Emden.

I'd say Limburg is the Maastricht + Upper-Gelre and baronies.

Then there is the County Gulik/ Julich. Which was as Dutch as Brabant and would speak Brabantian or Low-Bergian. (Yes, Berg and Kleve should probably have a Dutch culture as they were part of low-franconian the group). In those days you'd see a lot more similarities between Holland and Kleve (Cleves) than Holland and Gelre. But, if the Paradox isn't willing to merge Dutch and Flemish culture in 1444... Then it's not worth arguing for adding something like Berg and Kleve to the Low Countries culture group.
 

Calanon

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What about this?
*snip*
Metz, may I ask why every map you post of a revamped Netherlands has Antwerp where it is rather than where Mechelen is and also owned by Flanders? I largely agree with it (although, personally I wouldn't include Tournai) but that is one thing I do not understand.
 

tinholt

Quit modding. Won't be returning.
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What about this?
6LSwRBd.jpg

I'm not a big fan of making Den Bosch its own province. Here is why:

- Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch) was a slowly declining city within the Low Countries and doesn't have enough power in the region to function as a proper capital. In the 13th century, the city boasted a population of 15,000 people. But, by the end of the campaign that number is broughtdown to 9,000.
- The other cities in the region don't fare any better. Eindhoven was a mere fortification in the region that was very agrarian. A mere fortifcation to stop people from crossing the river Maas (which saw its path more to the South in those times)


Den Bosch, is however a very nice city for producing great people. Take for example Hieronymus Bosch, Gerardus Mercator, and Macropedius. All born in the city.

Apart from Breda the region was region was in decline as developing it was too risky as there were no natural borders to defend it against incoming armies, and relatively far from the sea. Except for of course Breda and Bergen op Zoom . Breda was actually able to stop from the city population from dwindling (even after losing its direct sea connection in the 16th/17th century) is because it developed in River waterways and transport. Where people would pay the local churches to operate a ferrying business, thus creating initiative for rural businessmen to invest without the risks you'd see in other border regions.

Now you might ask: Why not do the same for 's Hertogenbosch (Den Bosch) ? Well, this has to do with elevation. Hard to see on this map, but the elevation increases by 30 meters when you go South of Den Bosch, creating the same system would require an intricate network of sluices and such systems you wouldn't want to see sabotaged during a war. And very expensive to maintain.

hkaart.jpg


Also. You can't just draw a line and say: Well, it looks good on the map. Seems balanced. People, do your own research. Especially when you'll have to update the history files later on. Breda as a provinces never really saw a divide and during the entire campaign's timeline stayed together.

This is the kwadrant of Den Bosch:
1920px-Map_-_NL_-_Municipality_Meierij_Historical.png


But, if you'd add Den Bosch to the game it would leave you with a Breda only occupting 1/5th to 1/4th the current provinces (Take in mind the most western part of the was reclaimed only recently. Breda used to be a coastal city.

veiligheidsnorm.png


These are the diked areas of the Netherlands. The Polders. The Dutch are known for their Polder model, which originates from tight-knit communities that would maintain their polder. They were administrative divisions and thus should in their entirety be integrated into the provinces you see in the game.

If you were going to divide up Breda into two provinces this is what you'd end up with. Tilburg and 's-Hertogenbosh have always been part of the same kwadrant (going back till the 9th century)

ll3vGPh.png


As you can see the coastline extended further inland at the start of the game. All that is blue was still to considered as ocean back then. And you'd have Breda and Bergen op Zoom (not shown on this map, but it's all the way on the left, I marked in in red) function as the province's main ports. Bergen op Zoom used to be a thriving trading city, until of course the St. Felix's flood of 1530 hit the Netherlands and caused the death of 100,000 of its inhabitans.

Hard to imagine? These are the drowned villages of nowadays Zeeland. It's called Sealand because sometimes it was Sea, sometimes it was land.

verdrdorpen21.jpg


Black means floods, white means there were drowned by inundating the land during times of war.

One of the villages lost to the flood was Rommerswael (Reimerswaal), its inhabitants and history swallowed by the ocean.
1920px-270_a_Rommerswael_Vertoonden_zich_Vanouts_aldus.JPG


Metz, may I ask why every map you post of a revamped Netherlands has Antwerp where it is rather than where Mechelen is and also owned by Flanders? I largely agree with it (although, personally I wouldn't include Tournai) but that is one thing I do not understand.

Not only that, the province of Maastricht doesn't contain Maastricht. And the provinces of Limburg, even though it contains the village of Limburg, it doesn't actually any of the either Dutch or Belgian Limburg. Limburg the city today is not part of Limburg the province, rather its part of Liege/ Luik.

Limburg is merely the name, it translates to dragon fortification... Not really. It's more likely to refer to the lime deposits found in the region. Limehill basically. There are 2 places in nowadays Germany, one in Hesse. Nice place though, very scenic.

120175758-nepomuk-statue-alte-lahnbruecke-john-of-nepomuk-limburg-cathedral.jpg

But, I think Limburg the village/ city is a bit far from Limburg the provinces to include it. I'm
talking of course about Liege/Luik Limburg. Adding the Hessian Limburg to the Dutch province of Limburg is absolutely fine.
 
Last edited:

demanvanwezel

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