Love the game... but it doesn’t really feel like 3025?

[Kereminde]

That's how it seems to me, at least.

Honestly? What it seemed like to me was they had this idea . . . and then rubber hit the road when the game got into the testing phase. To put it into Mitch terms: It wasn't fun. And if it wasn't fun and engaging to play, then it wasn't going to garner the sales they were looking for.

That's with regards to toning down how punishing it "could have been". For the tech making it in? I've got several ideas of why but I think they're all possibly correct to some degree, and it comes down to the numerous repeated complaints about the DLC lacking "substance". So they scrambled to get something - anything - they could throw in. Which is how the LB-X and Ultra autocannons ... despite not really fitting ... make it in. Because the previous two DLCs were getting fire for not having enough to feel they were worth the value. (I disagree in both cases, but that's a discussion for another time and thread.)

Now as to the reply to me:

And this brings be full circle to the original question. There are many eras and regions available in battletech Cannon. If you want super customizable assault Mechs with clan tech, why not set the game in the FRR in 3050? Or if you want the game the way It was pre heavy metal, why not set it in FedCom space during the 4th succession war? Given the variety of options in setting, why choose one that doesn’t match the vision of the game?

The 'Mechs are not "super customizable", by a long shot. They're still quite constrained within some roles, and the sad truth is the best/worst have been pegged to be ones which were already "pretty bad" designs in the first place or ones which were known to be "useful". Also, I feel the need to point out - even Clan Omnis aren't quite ... simple ... to work with unless one ignores a good deal of issues which start looming thanks to Clans not understanding things such as "logistics" and "supply lines". But that's also another time, thread, and argument entirely.

But I'll point upwards to the key answer - because people want to tinker with their 'Mechs regardless of what canon says should be possible. That's really the long and short of it. It's expected. So to leave it out would be what some might call a Bad Idea.

 

[Pherdnut]

I never played tabletop but have some familiarity with the lore. I get that it's a bit cheesy to have a primordial clan ship drift into the periphery and pollute all the black markets with spectacular amounts of tech that shouldn't be here yet, but it's made the game a lot more fun. I've spent many hours re-evaluating tons of mechs that I'd been writing off as useless since the before the first expansion. Blackjacks with UAC/2s? Not sucking. ER and Pulse weapons? Actually super-interesting now that they have + versions. AND YET, I still find plenty of use for most of the old + weapons. UACs and LBX? Every single ballistic-centric mech in the game suddenly got a lot more interesting.

That's freaking great. Everything is interesting because there's always some tradeoff I might want to leverage for specific mech designs or recurring mission requirements. The only 2 other things I'd ask of this game before giving glowing rather than great reviews are: Load a lot faster, and, Let me pick the engines so I can try and make those 60 tonners a lot less useless - forget about whether I should be able to do that yet -- also I have an Argo with it's own fancy SLDF era machine shop so why shouldn't I?

 

[AussieGiant]

Evening All,

This topic has come up before and that's great as it is always a good theme to discuss and explore.

Putting aside the macro tension between building an engaging "playable" game for new, casual players versus a game that is accurate to the source material and the lore.

The solution I found was at the end of the last thread on the topic.

By using the various settings, you can still create an original 3025 look at feel campaign and career. This can be done with a 5+ pieces of salvage, slow MechWarrior progression, limited salvage and +/++/+++ weapon availability. This makes the flashpoint rewards, black market and faction stores more valuable and limits their impact on power creep.

You will still end up with a company sized unit that could probably hold its own versus a company of the Wolf Dragoons at the same time but that's a nice ceiling to stop at

Of course, at the baseline default settings the power creep is staggering and does have me wondering how on earth can they keep up this pace of power creep if they intend to do 2 or 3 more games plus DLC. Having said all that, we all know Jordan and Mitch know this better than all of us put together. I would love to be fly on the wall listening to their thoughts on how to continue delivering new games given how far we have come with just 3 DLC's on the first iteration of what is hopefully a few more games to come.

 

[Kereminde]

Of course, at the baseline default settings the power creep is staggering and does have me wondering how on earth can they keep up this pace of power creep...

Classic BattleTech had the same issue. Its solution? We don't know, they kinda didn't solve it at all...

Honestly, having been playing a fresh Career Mode after HM I need to point out - the power creep is dependent on skilled play. Especially with "Mech Destruction" and "Pilot Lethality" turned on. If you're good at the game? Great, you're rewarded with an easier time of things and you can get creative to find new ways to do things. If you're not that good at it . . . it's not going to magically get that much easier. If you're fairly bad at the game, you're going to get locked into a death spiral faster.

For all the claims of "power creep", the game has not fundamentally changed in a huge fashion. There's a couple new tools, but if I'm having trouble with the contracts - if random chance doesn't dole out this "overpowered" 'Mechs and equipment? It's not going to make a difference. An Ironman game cuts a lot of shenanigans out where this can get abused, plus those two flags above? I'm going to be risking things, and unless I'm already smashing the OpFors then I will see that shiny fancy equipment getting busted. I'm decent enough at this game, but Career Mode with Ironman, Lethality, and CT Destruction flags turned on is a different ball game than Campaign Mode.

(And Campaign Mode has the benefit of allowing us to go grind comfortably until missions are a cakewalk, so it's already skewed in our favor to the point self-limitation is the only real difficulty adjustment we can look at. Those not playing Ironman... let's be honest, the only thing keeping a person from walking through the game with no casualties is not clicking "Restart Mission" as soon as they lose something valuable...)

And therein is the problem with discussing this game - it's not one game, it's about ninety. Depending on an individual's difficulty choices, self-limitations, and how often save-scumming is a thing? HBS' BattleTech can be anything from a target gallery to a forced march at gunpoint to an unfortunate end digging one's own grave. (Eight pieces to complete a new 'Mech from salvage is not a joking matter... especially if you have the CT Destruction flag turned on and get to watch that lovely CN9 Centurion you rebuilt get cored out in a single round because a Demolisher got lucky.)

 

[Endgame124]

This is a highly subjective thing and somewhat speculative because I'm not privy to HBS's internal discussions, but I feel like the vision for the game has changed as time has gone on. I remember early on during production back on the old forum (this was before HBS was bought by Paradox), it sounded like they wanted to make a much less forgiving game, where acquiring mechs was difficult, losing one was devastating, and even losing a pilot was a serious setback. The era and region were chosen to suit that, and because they also had a narrative focus during this time and wanted a blank slate.

Things loosened up considerably by the time the game launched to be much, much more forgiving, and each expansion has gone more into a "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" sandbox kind of game, with lostech everywhere and campaign mode forgotten in favor of career mode. As such, decisions made to suit the game as originally envisioned don't match the current reality.

That's how it seems to me, at least.

This is probably the most reasonable answer. I can see how they could pick a relatively unused portion of the periphery for initial discussion and design. It just makes sense to start there if you want something new to fit in the 3025 timeline.

Fast forward a year or two in development and you’re pretty committed via story, planets, etc. you get feedback that XY and Z should be done (needs more assault mechs, needs to be easier, etc) and the modifications start piling on drifting from the original design. Next thing you know, you’ve got the equivalent of flying F22s in your WWII flight sim, but people like blowing everything up.

This does give me some extra appreciation for how they implemented heavy metal - the Minnesota tribe is a bit of a stretch in this area of the periphery, but it fits well enough with a malfunctioning jump drive, and tosses a bone to people who are really into the BT fluff. It also lets them add the clan tech weapons for people who really want them.


I also must say that I’m much happier with the higher difficulty career I started - increasing the salvage requirement, disabling + salvage, and slowing pilot progression really helps with the era feel. I’ve just been ignoring the fancy weapons in the store as well. My lingering annoyance is the special mods installed on the unseen as it’s not canon and I can’t remove them, but I suppose I can either just never field those mechs or see if there is a mod that removes them.

as I think about it, for certain play throughs, I might even be interested in buying some of the black market gear based on the existing story as long as I stopped by the end of the heavy metal flashpoint. Will likely depend on my mood for that particular career.

thanks for the thoughts everyone!

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Kiva’s been penning some quite excellent articles on game design from her Twitter Account.

BATTLETECH’s game design changed with respect to Multiplayer and was announced in Kickstarter Update 47.

Less we forget, BATTLETECH was kickstarted not just with competitive Multiplayer but with HBS-sponsored PRIZE Tournaments/Leagues. Valhalla admittance was to be a regular offering from HBS-sponsored Prize Tournaments.

Such HBS-sponsorship, recognition and Prizes more than doubles-down on simple Competitive Multiplayer.

The pivot to a “more friend-focused model of multiplayer functionality” was a significant example of BATTLETECH game design change.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

... If you're not that good at it . . . it's not going to magically get that much easier...)

Except that Mechs and Advanced Weapons are literally falling off of the back of trucks and into our hands, free of charge. So yeah, it has gotten Yangically-easier. :shrug:

 

[stjobe]

Except that Mechs and Advanced Weapons are literally falling off of the back of trucks and into our hands, free of charge. So yeah, it has gotten Yangically-easier. :shrug:

What I believe @Kereminde is saying is that if you're not good at the game, the new weapons won't magically make you better at it. You'll still put yourself in situations where your 'Mechs gets bits blown off - whether those bits are new or old equipment.

 

[AussieGiant]

As mentioned, I found most of my concerns with the longevity of the game have disappeared with the difficulty sliders and options that have been included.


If you set your difficulty to 1.00 (the combinations are too many to list) you end up with a campaign that is very much like a 3025-periphery book, RPG or TT experience from back in the "old days".


As @Kereminde mentions, once you increase parts, toggle on MechWarrior lethality and CT core destruction, then the gear you obtain can be set to whatever level of availability suits your taste.

 

[Timaeus]

Kiva’s been penning some quite excellent articles on game design from her Twitter Account.

BATTLETECH’s game design changed with respect to Multiplayer and was announced in Kickstarter Update 47.

Less we forget, BATTLETECH was kickstarted not just with competitive Multiplayer but with HBS-sponsored PRIZE Tournaments/Leagues. Valhalla admittance was to be a regular offering from HBS-sponsored Prize Tournaments.

Such HBS-sponsorship, recognition and Prizes more than doubles-down on simple Competitive Multiplayer.

The pivot to a “more friend-focused model of multiplayer functionality” was a significant example of BATTLETECH game design change.

Please, stop repeatedly posting everywhere about how HBS had to drop competitive multiplayer from the Kickstarter. It is coming to the point of spamming an agenda (even when using it here as an example of a design change HBS made for the game), and that is not allowed.

Thank you
Timaeus

 

[Corraidhin]

I've found the additional weapons and 'Mechs have taken me down different routes. I use existing mechs differently and (as far as I can tell) get more out of them now.

I'm also using my Marauder and Archer still, even though I'm now facing assault lances. I've switched my Grasshopper from disco ML to ERMLs and use it much more surgically.

None of the changes are drastic, but it does mean I've used lighter 'Mechs for longer, and have correspondingly increases my enjoyment of the game. Using 4 pieces salvage and no rare salvage have changed things too, and really puts the brakes on player power creep in the early game.

 

[Hobbes__]

This does give me some extra appreciation for how they implemented heavy metal - the Minnesota tribe is a bit of a stretch in this area of the periphery, but it fits well enough with a malfunctioning jump drive, and tosses a bone to people who are really into the BT fluff.

If you check the current canon/lore regarding the Minnesota Tribe, there are plenty of tidbits that point towards the Rimward Periphery being a likely place for Clan Wolverine to have traveled through while they were running away from the Clans.

 

[Gauntlet]

Re: CT destruction

I wish you had more vanilla options regarding this.

Right now it's either On/Off. Destroyed/not destroyed.

You can mode it so that there's a percentage chance of a mech being irreparably destroyed when it gets cored out but I kinda wish that was part of the difficulty sliders. . . .

 

[Endgame124]

If you check the current canon/lore regarding the Minnesota Tribe, there are plenty of tidbits that point towards the Rimward Periphery being a likely place for Clan Wolverine to have traveled through while they were running away from the Clans.

The sarna entry
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Minnesota_Tribe

Has the route coming from FRR along the ghost bear invasion lane, traveling through the combine, and Then heading out via the fed suns / combined border toward the outworld alliance.

 

[Kereminde]

Except that Mechs and Advanced Weapons are literally falling off of the back of trucks and into our hands, free of charge. So yeah, it has gotten Yangically-easier. :shrug:

True, but it's one bad move away from some Capellans tearing that shiny UAC/5 off a Blackjack's arm on the first deployment, or that lovely new* PHX-1 Phoenix Hawk with a COIL-M getting exploded because the client forgot to mention the turrets. (Again.)

And yes. Yeah, I had both of these happen. #JustBattleTechThings



* = "for some value of new".

Re: CT destruction

I wish you had more vanilla options regarding this.

Right now it's either On/Off. Destroyed/not destroyed.

You can mode it so that there's a percentage chance of a mech being irreparably destroyed when it gets cored out but I kinda wish that was part of the difficulty sliders. . . .

I wish knockdowns were not guaranteed, but a function of Piloting skill whether it happens or just causes getting slowed down . . . or a variable aim penalty for failing to knock down. But random chance runs into a series of problems where it's possible the player feels it's not fair. (Like the Urbie headshot derby from Backer Beta days...)

 

[Hobbes__]

The sarna entry
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Minnesota_Tribe

Has the route coming from FRR along the ghost bear invasion lane, traveling through the combine, and Then heading out via the fed suns / combined border toward the outworld alliance.

Check the Evidence and Leads section of that page.
In 3095 Interstellar Expeditions (IE) finds proof of the Minnesota Tribe in a world close to MacEvedy's Folly (and this is canon, since it appears in the Interstellar Expeditions sourcebook). I've pointed out with a purple circle the location of MacEvedy's Folly in the game's expanded star map below, and Tarragona (the destination of the Dobrev) is marked with a red circle.
Furthermore, the same sourcebook states that Farhome (the green circle at the bottom right of the star map posted below) is considered to be in the axis of the Minnesota Tribe's disappearance, although IE determines that the world was never visited by them.

The assumption here is that Clan Wolverine (or a part of it, since the novel Betrayal Of Ideals establishes that there were at least two separate groups that escaped the Clans' annihilation trial) attacked the Combine and then traveled all the way around the Outworlds Alliance, Federated Suns and Taurian Concordat (marked with yellow arrows), to avoid contact with the IS and get as many space as possible between them and the rest of the clans.

There are also other tidbits spread out through the sourcebooks with some interesting coincidences:
* The leader of Clan Wolverine remnants after they escaped the Clans was Trish Ebon. During the Jihad, the Magistracy of Canopus revealed that they had a special forces unit called 'The Ebon Magistrate' that had access to advanced technology (for 3070 standards). It can be a name coincidence or it can be the same situation as the relation of Natasha Kerensky with the rest of the Clans.
* In all other galactic directions ('north', 'east' and 'west' on the star map) you can find Deep Periphery states like the Hanseatic League, Axumite Province and others. But on the Rimward Periphery there isn't any to be found. On the Interstellar Expeditions sourcebook this is explained by IE due to a fear of getting lost into the unknown regions or that there might be an active effort by the Taurians or the Canopians to prevent new states from being formed. Or, I would add, there might be someone else out there.

So yeah, the Rimward Periphery is definitely the place to go if you're looking for Clan Wolverine/Minnesota Tribe, as established by the current BattleTech canon, specially in the Interstellar Expeditions sourcebook.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm ok with the Lostech being in-game, however I feel like the Autocannons (Ultra and LBX) feel a tiny bit too common. In running a lot of Ultras right now (8 UA/C5s, 3 UA/C10s, and 2 UA/C20s) within my chosen lance and one back up mech. The ERs and Pulses are a little less common and often expensive, so that seems ok to me. Snub Nose PPCs are a bit common, but not too bad. Coils seem rare enough.

This is just my play through, so maybe store RNG would play out differently.

I think a little bit more Ultra/LBX autocannon rarity might be nice, but other than that, the rest feels ok at the least.

 

[Kereminde]

I think a little bit more Ultra/LBX autocannon rarity might be nice, but other than that, the rest feels ok at the least.

On reflection, this does seem quite true and does sort of "ding" the rarity of such weapons. But this tends to fall into the case of "separation of what's good for a game and what's good for canon" - as a game dev you want players to actually encounter the fun "new toys", and as a player you don't want to have to search everywhere for months of in-game time. (As you do for Gauss Ammo and Double Heat Sinks...) Add to this how Ultras have the recoil issue, making it necessary to have skill progression set up to try to blunt that some...

LB-Xs are something I have not used, as the cluster hit which spreads damage out is not necessarily something I like as much. Snub PPCs are fun because they have the accuracy debuff (and my WHM using two of them has a lot of fun).

The one which gets me smirking is . . . for as crazy as it is seen to use Inferno SRMs according to canon, they're sold "often enough" . . . and are almost as good as Flamers (if not better) for stacking Heat on targets. (Aforementioned WHM replaced the SRM rack with Infernos because I was finding myself doing "The Red Hunt" flashpoint and it became very giggle-worthy to tag people with those repeatedly.)

 

[Endgame124]

I think I’m on the opposite side of things for lostech - I was happy when the only lostech seen was from the campaign and you might see an exchanger once total in an extended play through. It’s not really lost at the current rarity.

 

[Kereminde]

I think I’m on the opposite side of things for lostech - I was happy when the only lostech seen was from the campaign and you might see an exchanger once total in an extended play through. It’s not really lost at the current rarity.

Mmm.

I'll note, before Heavy Metal this was sort of the experience I'd get cruising around - stores rarely had 'Mechs or "rare equipment" in them like Exchangers or Heat Banks. However, this did make it rather risky to play around with these things - so I simply didn't bother with them. Sort of the reason I tended to not bother doing customization on 'Mechs unless I no longer had the parts to refit to stock - it was hard enough sometimes getting stock parts. (You have no idea how long it took me to replace the busted AC/2 on a Blackjack...)

Really, as I said - it's a question of whether the developers want to actually see people using this stuff, or whether it winds up like my usual Final Fantasy runs where I'm holding 90x [Megalixir] and still going "I probably shouldn't use that... might run out".