Losses around Maginot

[GermanDave]

As Germany I always lose up to 1 million men on the western front as the Allies keep dogpiling in BeNeLux.
I always use field hospitals for my 40 width 10-6-1 Line INF but they don't mitigate the manpower and XP losses.

How do I grind down these fucking doomstacks?

Language removed - Secret Master

 

[Axe99]

Are you using much in the way of armour (and researching enough doctrines to make it appropriately powerful)? Armour is particularly good at breakthroughs, encirclements and overruns (and it was Germany's armoured formations that enabled it to win its quick victories historically). It's been a little while since I played Germany, but I had a couple of games around when 1.3.3 was released and the campaign in the West seemed reasonable enough.

Edit: Also look out for keeping your units equipped up. Combat uses a stack of equipment.

 

[redrum68]

Screenshots or save game would help. If you are building 10-6-1 divisions that are fully equipped, trained to regulars, have full planning bonus, and doing basic micromanagement then you should easily take Paris within a few months of the war starting. Tanks and encirclements will help but aren't necessary.

 

[GermanDave]

What would the best tank setup be? I usually stick with German light tanks 6-4-8 (LArm-LSPART-MOT). What annoys me is that I always need a 24 stack to guard my coastline because of the invasion spam.

 

[Bolshevik-]

As Germany I always lose up to 1 million men on the western front as the Allies keep dogpiling in BeNeLux.
I always use field hospitals for my 40 width 10-6-1 Line INF but they don't mitigate the manpower and XP losses.

How the fuck do I grind down these fucking doomstacks?

Get nice 40 width tank divisions and march through into northern France. If theres no rule preventing France from doing level 10 forts across the Belgian border than you're out of luck. If its only level 6 or 7 you should be fine with 40 width tank divisions.

 

[redrum68]

What would the best tank setup be? I usually stick with German light tanks 6-4-8 (LArm-LSPART-MOT). What annoys me is that I always need a 24 stack to guard my coastline because of the invasion spam.

Usually its better to focus on medium rather than light tanks since breaking through is more important than speed. You can always just use MOT divisions for speed to encircle.

 

[SteveStevenson]

Infantry are extremely weak on the offensive, more so than you would think. Because of the way battle width works, you can't just spam infantry to compensate for their short comings. Your tank template that you posted should be more than sufficient, with either light or mediums, to break the Benelux. Just make sure that you have a full planning bonus when you attack.

Typically speaking, you need air superiority or at least air parity to go on the offensive. If your enemy has air superiority or worse, close air support, then even heavy tanks won't help you much. I have played a multiplayer game where Germany nearly pushed me and France to Paris on the continent with light tanks, infantry, and masses of close air support.

 

[GermanDave]

Usually its better to focus on medium rather than light tanks since breaking through is more important than speed. You can always just use MOT divisions for speed to encircle.

The problem with medium tanks for me is the production cost. How would I go about balancing that?

 

[Secret Master]

The problem with medium tanks for me is the production cost. How would I go about balancing that?

You don't "balance" it. You plan ahead so you can have enough tanks. You want good equipment? You have to pay the price.

You have no idea how many factories I put on medium armor (and variants) in a typical game as Germany. Before the resource changes in 1.3.3, I had an MP game where 60% of Germany's GDP was invested in Panthers and Panther variants. Now the only limit is oil, so I can't build quite as many as I used to.

 

[redrum68]

The problem with medium tanks for me is the production cost. How would I go about balancing that?

Medium tanks aren't really that much more expensive than light tanks. Best thing to do is go hard for early medium armor research using bonuses and then try to churn out at least a few of 40 width medium tank with MOT divisions by the start of WW2. Then continuing building them so you have a decent number to use against the Soviets.

 

[Daliena]

Is Italy on your side? If so, even if they aren't attacking you could try some mountaineers through the Alps, at least if the AI hasn't built mega-forts there. There's also the possibility of bringing Franco's Nationalist Spain into it for a third front. France is in a rough position with a LOT of avenues to defend if the fascists team up.

 

[afb]

Time is also a factor. As Germany it is tempting to delay the war to claim territory in Yugoslavia, etc. but France really benefits from this. They have a couple of bottlenecks in their NF-tree that they need to clear out before they can really get going, but once they do, you need to crush them sooner rather than later. Fighting them in late '39 is much preferable to late '40.

 

[GermanDave]

You don't "balance" it. You plan ahead so you can have enough tanks. You want good equipment? You have to pay the price.

You have no idea how many factories I put on medium armor (and variants) in a typical game as Germany. Before the resource changes in 1.3.3, I had an MP game where 60% of Germany's GDP was invested in Panthers and Panther variants. Now the only limit is oil, so I can't build quite as many as I used to.

That's interesting to hear. I tend to build too much infantry I guess. What does a typical medium tank division look like? I always tend to go 6-4-8 (MArm-MSPART-MOT/MECH). Any room for improvement?

 

[Captured Joe]

Time is also a factor. As Germany it is tempting to delay the war to claim territory in Yugoslavia, etc. but France really benefits from this. They have a couple of bottlenecks in their NF-tree that they need to clear out before they can really get going, but once they do, you need to crush them sooner rather than later. Fighting them in late '39 is much preferable to late '40.

This. France needs years just to get their industry running, due to both extremely little political power gain and the industry being quite weak due to strikes and reinforcements; their colonial brigades need years to refill their equipment, which takes up practically all of France's armament industry till 1938-39. Attack them in 1938-39 with medium tanks from Belgium while keeping the Brits off your coast and you should be fine.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The problem with medium tanks for me is the production cost. How would I go about balancing that?

A Battalion of 1939 medium tanks cost 12*50 = 600 Industry points
A Battalion of 1936 light tanks cost 9*60 = 540 Industry points

So Light tanks are actually only 10% cheaper, while they are significantly weaker. Unless you can make good use of the extra speed of Light tanks, a safe bet always is to go medium.

 

[Axe99]

A Battalion of 1939 medium tanks cost 12*50 = 600 Industry points
A Battalion of 1936 light tanks cost 9*60 = 540 Industry points

So Light tanks are actually only 10% cheaper, while they are significantly weaker. Unless you can make good use of the extra speed of Light tanks, a safe bet always is to go medium.

Definitely in the long run - and with Germany, they'll have rush mediums earlier a lot of the time so have production built up, but one of the benefits of light tanks early war is it's not too hard to have a decent-sized production run of them on full efficiency when war breaks out, while it can be tougher for mediums (although probably not that tough I guess, unless they're DoWing in 1937/38 ).

 

[redrum68]

That's interesting to hear. I tend to build too much infantry I guess. What does a typical medium tank division look like? I always tend to go 6-4-8 (MArm-MSPART-MOT/MECH). Any room for improvement?

That's pretty reasonable though in '38-'40, you are usually better off focusing on just MARM-MOT then adding in MSPART and replacing MOT with MECH later on as they are pretty expensive. I'd rather make sure I have a couple of fully equipped 40 width MARM divisions with a slightly weaker template than not fully equipped or 0 divisions.

 

[Secret Master]

That's interesting to hear. I tend to build too much infantry I guess. What does a typical medium tank division look like? I always tend to go 6-4-8 (MArm-MSPART-MOT/MECH). Any room for improvement?

If you are Germany you need more ARM in your divisions in most cases. Running the doctrine plus Germany's ministers means you can weight your panzer divisions towards more armor and less infantry.

The MECH and MOT are there to provide some defense and ORG, but the ARM and SPART are there to provide the firepower, breakthrough, and hardness. That is where panzer divisions really shine. Even if the enemy can pierce your panzers, they are still in deep trouble if your panzer divisions have high hardness, high breakthrough, and high firepower.

Here's a good started 40 width formation. This template shows stats with Panzer IVs and most (but not all) of the mobile warfare tree completed. No XP on the vehicles, and no ministers.

Even without MECH, it has a hardness of 68%. It has plenty of firepower and breakthrough. The speed will be better once you appoint some ministers. And it has enough ORG to stay in the fight for as long as it needs to. If you upgrade to MECH, it gets some better stats, including 77% hardness. But MECH is so expensive, especially early in the game, that I find it prohibitive for mass inclusion in panzer forces until later. (There are some issues with speed on MECH I, but that's a whole other discussion.)

The MAINT is there for keeping the equipment from facing breakdowns, the LOG is there to keep your division in supply, the ENG is there to help with terrain. And the Recon is there to speed the division up on open terrain.

 

[Reinner]

There is one small thing you can do when you go around Maginot. Position your troops at Benelux, but only declare war on Netherlands. Because the country is not connected with France, the only way Allies can reach it and reinforce it is by sea and by that time you should already capitulate them. As soon as Netherlands falls, reposition your troops north of Belgium and declare war on the rest of two and just push towards Paris.

 

[GermanDave]

There is one small thing you can do when you go around Maginot. Position your troops at Benelux, but only declare war on Netherlands. Because the country is not connected with France, the only way Allies can reach it and reinforce it is by sea and by that time you should already capitulate them. As soon as Netherlands falls, reposition your troops north of Belgium and declare war on the rest of two and just push towards Paris.

Yeah I recently figured that out as well. If the arrow AI wouldn't start fight against massive doomstacks that would be helpful. Are there any mods to prevent this?

If you are Germany you need more ARM in your divisions in most cases. Running the doctrine plus Germany's ministers means you can weight your panzer divisions towards more armor and less infantry.

The MECH and MOT are there to provide some defense and ORG, but the ARM and SPART are there to provide the firepower, breakthrough, and hardness. That is where panzer divisions really shine. Even if the enemy can pierce your panzers, they are still in deep trouble if your panzer divisions have high hardness, high breakthrough, and high firepower.

Here's a good started 40 width formation. This template shows stats with Panzer IVs and most (but not all) of the mobile warfare tree completed. No XP on the vehicles, and no ministers.

View attachment 262997

Even without MECH, it has a hardness of 68%. It has plenty of firepower and breakthrough. The speed will be better once you appoint some ministers. And it has enough ORG to stay in the fight for as long as it needs to. If you upgrade to MECH, it gets some better stats, including 77% hardness. But MECH is so expensive, especially early in the game, that I find it prohibitive for mass inclusion in panzer forces until later. (There are some issues with speed on MECH I, but that's a whole other discussion.)

The MAINT is there for keeping the equipment from facing breakdowns, the LOG is there to keep your division in supply, the ENG is there to help with terrain. And the Recon is there to speed the division up on open terrain.

Thank you for the tips and template. The tank division template is really useful. I always thought soft attack trumps breakthrough.

One thing I also wonder is how many divisions Germany can effectively support by the outbreak of the war. I always go with 5 x 24 40-width stacks.