well, thy can allways change it that you have limited amoun of assasins based on your and spymaster intrigue, plus it will take time depending on rank of victim - higher rank, longer time.
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Loss of potentail
- Thread starter Zuru84
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well, thy can allways change it that you have limited amoun of assasins based on your and spymaster intrigue, plus it will take time depending on rank of victim - higher rank, longer time.
I think the whole idea of CK has so much potential that it's impossible for them, or anyone really, to fully realise it. You can literally just add stuff to it ad infinitum and there would still be some nuances missing and potential for more.
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While it's true that CKII has come on in leaps and bounds, the OP has a point that some of the original colour has fallen by the way side as things have been "fine tuned."
A short list:
Counter-Assassination - something people always seem to forget. when you sent an assassin your target could send one back and this could go back and forth for years. All fun and game until someone dies, or loses an eye - literally.
Plot to weaken fellow Vassal - This was removed a few years ago because it apparently didn't work properly. Despite that I have definatel seen the AI use it to effect, and been involved in said plot (though I never initiated it). Basically, this plot targeted a Duke with more than one Duchy, the aim being to force him to give away one of his Duchies to a vassal. It could resolve a number of ways, one being to involve the liege, you could try to compel the Duke, or it could resolve with out and out war.
The old stat-improvement events - like buying an inn, talking a suicide off a roof etc. These are technically still in the game if you have WoL but it's unlikely you'll ever see them. You see, the code checks to see if you you have a given stat below 8, but each focus give you either plus 3 or plus 2 to the stat the code checks. So in order for you to get war-related events like the drunken samurai you have to have a base martial stat of 4, and you have to receive no stat boost from the War focus other than the +3.
A short list:
Counter-Assassination - something people always seem to forget. when you sent an assassin your target could send one back and this could go back and forth for years. All fun and game until someone dies, or loses an eye - literally.
Plot to weaken fellow Vassal - This was removed a few years ago because it apparently didn't work properly. Despite that I have definatel seen the AI use it to effect, and been involved in said plot (though I never initiated it). Basically, this plot targeted a Duke with more than one Duchy, the aim being to force him to give away one of his Duchies to a vassal. It could resolve a number of ways, one being to involve the liege, you could try to compel the Duke, or it could resolve with out and out war.
The old stat-improvement events - like buying an inn, talking a suicide off a roof etc. These are technically still in the game if you have WoL but it's unlikely you'll ever see them. You see, the code checks to see if you you have a given stat below 8, but each focus give you either plus 3 or plus 2 to the stat the code checks. So in order for you to get war-related events like the drunken samurai you have to have a base martial stat of 4, and you have to receive no stat boost from the War focus other than the +3.
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You can still revoke vassal titles by plot, if they meet some conditions:
- Not a Patrician
- Target is not merchant republic
- No truce with target
- Title was not granted in the last year
- Title is not special (holy order, mercenary, or religious head)
- county outside duke's duchy
- or duke with no de jure counties in his realm
- or any county in the same duchy as liege's capital
- or secondary county of a multi-count
While true, there are other random events added in that counter that. They are all +1 grants but they have a slightly more than average chance of triggering. I rarely have rulers that would benefit from those events though. A good fix for all that would be to just shift them over into the appropriate WoL focuses, remove the stat requirement, and have them trigger rarely and only once per lifetime.
That's a different plot. That plot is run by the liege, the one I described is run by another Duke.
They're already in the appropriate WoL focuses, you just need to account for the stat buffs by giving them a different stat requirement. So war events need a "less than 11" requirement instead of "less than 8". The events then have a chance to fire as intended of the character's actual stat, sans bonus.
Edit: To be clear, I mean that you need different stat requirments depending on if you have WoL active or not.
Let's forget what we're missing here - salting tunics, drunk samurai, flying machines...
I want those events - I don't want them with every character but I want to find out what happens if you add ALL THE SALT to the turnips one day and unless I get a character with 4 Stewardship I never will unless I turn off WoL.
I also want to be able to hire assassins as part of plots so that when they send assassins after me in return I might lose an eye to a maid chambermaid.
Correct. I know what plot you were talking about, I suppose I wasn't clear enough in what I was getting at. The Liege plot is far superior to the older plot regarding double dukes, in terms of scope. It doesn't allow you to break up double dukes, sure, but there are more situations where it can apply. You can also force revoke a double dukedom with an incited rebellion in any case.
I think ALL THE SALT is bad most of the time.
Moving those stat requirements up to 11 would be perfect. Covers all the WoL focuses that do +2. I always thought they should go off of base stat but that might be a little bit OP, unless there was a ten or fifteen year cooldown between events firing.
You could always turn it back on you know, it's as simple as a quick edit in the defines file with notepad++
Oops. I thought the title was "Loss of ponytail" and was wondering what portrait pack I'm missing.
Potential doesn't matter in CK2, it's the performance that keeps people from playing.
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They've added lots of ways to die (A Thousand Ways to Die: CK2 Edition) so it would have been nice if they added more variety to the assassination plots, you can only blow someone up in a manure bomb so often before it becomes stale. Duels too, I suppose. I don't miss the loose ambitions (in fact I didn't even realize they were missing till now) cuz they've been folded into other stuff for the most part.
On the topic of espionage though, I've been playing Sunless Sea recently and they have a pretty straightforward (yet enjoyable) spy mechanic. You go to a place and establish a network and then you do what they need to raise their spy level, the higher their level the more likely they are to successfully provide you with useful stuff. Every time you tapped it tho there was a chance your network level would fall cuz they've exposed themselves so you'd have to build it back up again before using it so it regulated itself. In once instance they helped me pacify a fractious colony for the Traitor Empress and Fallen London.
It was fun, I felt very wily. I don't think it would be very hard to implement something similar in CK2, build a network and then random events fire (the higher your network level the more potent/useful the plots) where you can steal money, replace chancellors with people loyal to you, assassinate or abduct people, fabricate claims for yourself or for the kingdom to get them to go to war against someone, poison the ruler over time so you can take the regency, foment rebellion, maybe eliminate small noble houses entirely etc.
On the topic of espionage though, I've been playing Sunless Sea recently and they have a pretty straightforward (yet enjoyable) spy mechanic. You go to a place and establish a network and then you do what they need to raise their spy level, the higher their level the more likely they are to successfully provide you with useful stuff. Every time you tapped it tho there was a chance your network level would fall cuz they've exposed themselves so you'd have to build it back up again before using it so it regulated itself. In once instance they helped me pacify a fractious colony for the Traitor Empress and Fallen London.
It was fun, I felt very wily. I don't think it would be very hard to implement something similar in CK2, build a network and then random events fire (the higher your network level the more potent/useful the plots) where you can steal money, replace chancellors with people loyal to you, assassinate or abduct people, fabricate claims for yourself or for the kingdom to get them to go to war against someone, poison the ruler over time so you can take the regency, foment rebellion, maybe eliminate small noble houses entirely etc.
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You're talking about it from the point of view of the liege - I'm talking about it from the point of view of another Duke. You're correct that the revoke plot is quite powerful, but it's only good if you're the Emperor.
Granted, I usually am the Emperor but the point remains that Dukes used to be able to politic, now all they can do is murder each other.
I think ALL THE SALT is bad most of the time.
Moving those stat requirements up to 11 would be perfect. Covers all the WoL focuses that do +2. I always thought they should go off of base stat but that might be a little bit OP, unless there was a ten or fifteen year cooldown between events firing.
Well, the idea is just to cancel out the bonus. So one of the old events are war-based you add 3 to the stat requirement, so the code reads as "Martial >11", for family themed events you would adjust the code to "Diplomacy >10". Remember that the code can check for a DLC and apply different conditions to an event than otherwise.
You should then be about as likely to get them as you are WITHOUT WoL.
I've been waiting on an expansion focused on intrigue FOREVER now. Its so obvious that that is one they really need to do, but instead they do silly stuff like adding India into the game, or adding in cats.
I'm gonna be really disappointed if one of the last few remaining DLCs isnt one about intrigue.
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I think the point being made is why remove these plots/features entirely rather than refine and reform? Then again assassination, I didn't miss the removal of this button. I wasted a good bit of time hovering my mouse over the easy fix button and save scumming thereafter.. It's removal cured me of my save scumming addiction.
I will say that the plot mentioned above in the thread (Weaken Vassal Plot) was pretty easy for the player on the receiving end of one of these "weaken vassal plots" to exploit the hell out of it. It was used (or rather i used it) to get some free revocations within my realm by simply asking my vassals who joined the plot to leave it and if refused, revoke revoke, ta ta. Thus instead of weakening the player, it strengthened the player by them being able to remove the haters, bring in the love or just keep it themselves.
I STILL would have preferred it be reworked a tad so it wasn't so exploitable (simple to code, if a vassal would accept a title being revoked then say yes if asked to stop plotting) Which one would think be a pretty reasonable and simple way to solve the exploit and thus keep the plot. That was an easy fix.
Instead it's removed, leaving a big gap in inter-vassal plot actions ie leaving no actions. I think the Fabricate Claim on Duchy plot was also removed if you held a county in another Duchy as a vassal. This was balanced by the player then being susceptible to a revocation plot by the liege (as mentioned in the thread) so it was a bit risky to hold this county personally for a length of time. The plot wasn't available if you landed a vassal there. You had to personally hold that county. Still, it added something to the experience..
One major re-work i would suggest is having the Liege lord opinion of super dukes changed. As a Duke begins to hate a King (above 2 Duke level titles held personally by the King) a King should begin to dislike a Duke who has more than 1 or 2 Duke level titles (along with the fellow Dukes of the realm) equally. This would make the Liege more inclined to start up a revocation plot and other vassals more willing to join said plot (hence making the Fabricate Claim on Duchy far more risky to the player by holding that county personally). At the moment, these Behemoth Dukes in relation to opinion are treated exactly the same as a single county/single Duke title character which is just wrong. They should be seen (especially from a Liege lords perspective) as being a major threat. In reality, you see no reflection of this in opinion vs size.
People may well say, Hang On!! This makes it harder for Duke tier players. Past releases, i'd have agreed but now the marriage game and NAP's were introduced the Player can counter the risk if he's a NAP with the liege or other Dukes BUT that same NAP prevents the Duke from targeting those characters. The more Duke level titles the player holds, the less the liege likes you and the harder to secure a marriage so the player needs to ensure his power is increasing enough per title to ensure he counters the threat better or ally up somewhere else. If it adds nothing to Gameplay it may just enable AI Rulers to better keep vassals under control and prevent Super Dukes forcing faction plotting as easy as they do at the moment.
I will say that the plot mentioned above in the thread (Weaken Vassal Plot) was pretty easy for the player on the receiving end of one of these "weaken vassal plots" to exploit the hell out of it. It was used (or rather i used it) to get some free revocations within my realm by simply asking my vassals who joined the plot to leave it and if refused, revoke revoke, ta ta. Thus instead of weakening the player, it strengthened the player by them being able to remove the haters, bring in the love or just keep it themselves.
I STILL would have preferred it be reworked a tad so it wasn't so exploitable (simple to code, if a vassal would accept a title being revoked then say yes if asked to stop plotting) Which one would think be a pretty reasonable and simple way to solve the exploit and thus keep the plot. That was an easy fix.
Instead it's removed, leaving a big gap in inter-vassal plot actions ie leaving no actions. I think the Fabricate Claim on Duchy plot was also removed if you held a county in another Duchy as a vassal. This was balanced by the player then being susceptible to a revocation plot by the liege (as mentioned in the thread) so it was a bit risky to hold this county personally for a length of time. The plot wasn't available if you landed a vassal there. You had to personally hold that county. Still, it added something to the experience..
One major re-work i would suggest is having the Liege lord opinion of super dukes changed. As a Duke begins to hate a King (above 2 Duke level titles held personally by the King) a King should begin to dislike a Duke who has more than 1 or 2 Duke level titles (along with the fellow Dukes of the realm) equally. This would make the Liege more inclined to start up a revocation plot and other vassals more willing to join said plot (hence making the Fabricate Claim on Duchy far more risky to the player by holding that county personally). At the moment, these Behemoth Dukes in relation to opinion are treated exactly the same as a single county/single Duke title character which is just wrong. They should be seen (especially from a Liege lords perspective) as being a major threat. In reality, you see no reflection of this in opinion vs size.
People may well say, Hang On!! This makes it harder for Duke tier players. Past releases, i'd have agreed but now the marriage game and NAP's were introduced the Player can counter the risk if he's a NAP with the liege or other Dukes BUT that same NAP prevents the Duke from targeting those characters. The more Duke level titles the player holds, the less the liege likes you and the harder to secure a marriage so the player needs to ensure his power is increasing enough per title to ensure he counters the threat better or ally up somewhere else. If it adds nothing to Gameplay it may just enable AI Rulers to better keep vassals under control and prevent Super Dukes forcing faction plotting as easy as they do at the moment.
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On the topic of ideas for more intrigue, EMF 5.07 has a bunch of them (http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Extended_Mechanics_&_Flavor_(EMF)#EMF_5.X_.28Conclave.29) and I posted a thread a while back: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/intrigue-enhancement.917865/
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why cant we kill the family of another guy to stop him from doing something i do not want him to do.
You know like " hello duke Robb, your daughter Gwenny is very beautiful, it would be a shame if something happened to her...."
You know like " hello duke Robb, your daughter Gwenny is very beautiful, it would be a shame if something happened to her...."
The only thing wrong with the assassin button was that it was instant. There should've just been a delay(longer if the ruler's farther away, almost instant if they're in your court), that would prevent you from spamming it to kill a guy without even unpausing. I hate how I have to spend months plotting to kill a petty lowborn courtier now that it's gone. Even with 250%(I think that's even the max, not sure) plot chance you could be waiting months or years to kill a guy in your own court. It also makes intrigue less useful since plotting relies more on diplomacy. Assassins actually existed in the Middle Ages and I should be able to hire them to quickly take out a minor target. I shouldn't have to invite all my vassals to a plot and then wait months to even attempt to kill a nobody.
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That's pretty nuts if it's true! I don't understand why they wouldn't fix that in patches?
I'm quite new to the game but still seem to see the same events over and over and then very rarely one of the special ones. I don't think based on what I've seen the game is lacking in events it just seems the calibration for which ones happen is off.
I recently had a king who had the monkey trainer event at every single one of the fairs during his reign. "here's your money I don't ever want to see your again" indeed. Although I did get some amusement from imagining it was the same one each time and that he was the Bane of my kings existence.
I don't really agree with most of the OP said although do wish that duels were more of a thing. The criteria for them is ridiculous. I'm constantly amazed people I'm in open war with don't count as foes. Although maybe with more friends and rivals it would work better.
Honestly, the wholesale removal of hired assassins was a mistake IMHO. It was imbalanced, but making intrigue plot only reduces player agency in the process to an annoying degree, and makes assassinations of people outside your realm almost impossible, even when they border you.
IMO, they should have added a cooldown to be assassinate button, along with a minimum plot strength to fire it of around 50%, and a reduced chance of success compared to a plot that fires on its own.
IMO, they should have added a cooldown to be assassinate button, along with a minimum plot strength to fire it of around 50%, and a reduced chance of success compared to a plot that fires on its own.
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Nah, cooldowns are not fun. Better make it an event chain, like duelling and seduction. And make it exclusive to intrigue focus.
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