Losing confidence in the dev team

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

minke19104

Lame Duck
77 Badges
Oct 17, 2012
1.326
0
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Hahahah
Feels like this topic deserves a bump again.

Considering how small is the influence the community has I can only propose an european way of dealing with this kind of situation - if u feel like losing confidence in the dev team indicate it by using this avatar:
stellaris_avatar_mammalian_13.png
 

Mrakvampire

Captain
88 Badges
Oct 19, 2009
405
244
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
Feels like this topic deserves a bump again.

Considering how small is the influence the community has I can only propose an european way of dealing with this kind of situation - if u feel like losing confidence in the dev team indicate it by using this avatar:

Meanwhile it is another long weekend / holiday / day off in Sweden...
1.7.2 fixed several bugs, but killed our CPUs. One step forward, two steps backwards
 

sr999

Colonel
78 Badges
Nov 15, 2009
1.005
408
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
I think that's the fifth time I've seen you post that video...

But the first time I'd seen it. Thanks Founder, good call.

...
Sectors could have been interesting, but they have no personality. If they worked more like vassals from CK2 it would introduce some interesting dynamic to the game, but right now they are just a handy automation tool. Planets have no personality either, with the exception of some rare occasions where there are some interesting events. The tile system is pretty limiting to what you can do with them. The faction system should introduce some dynamic in the game, but they don't really do that. It is way too easy to keep all of them happy.

The research system is a novel idea, but it has very little impact on the game and depends far too much on the RNG. Higher tiered ship modules are not worth their cost. Higher tiered weapons get increasingly less cost efficient, the same is true for shields and armor. The result is that given the same build- and maintenance-cost the lower tech fleet wins hands down.

...
Interesting post, thank you. Without disrespect to your other points, I just throw in a couple of thoughts.

As to planet "personality", I liked the GalCiv 3 approach to that - simple and extensible. As well as basic resources, that usefully might present choices on other things such as unity, anomalies, research, etc.

As to weapon/etc cost efficiency and the naked corvette syndrome, I've seen threads suggesting very simple arithmetic data balancing to eliminate the cost efficiency issues as between players - though I'm not sure whether or not that would disadvantage the AI's build plans.

If any of my comments are novel, feel free to plagiarize them for the suggestions thread.

They're not working on bugs right now. They'll be back in June and will continue work then. Realistically they should have delayed 1.6 until June to give it more time under development but everything is more obvious in hindsight and they would have missed their anniversary/PDXcon. That said, in the future be wary of Paradox games getting fast major version patches, it's a sign they weren't thorough with their changes.
Indeed. We should be thankful for the Swedish climate. Releasing our slaves for a few days of sunlight is a small price to pay for the fact they have nothing else to do the rest of the year but develop for us.
[EDIT: I taught a course in Helsingborg last month - Swedish side. Beautiful, but miserable weather even though that's almost as south as Sweden gets.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Oblivion

Second Lieutenant
May 19, 2017
149
0
But the first time I'd seen it. Thanks Founder, good call.
It's a bs video with nothing but apologism. A lot of 'this is why mistakes can't be fixed', not a lot of 'why they should get a pass for the mistakes in the first place'.

I work with clients. Do you know what would happen if I tried any of the excuses in the video with them? Hahahaha..... x99

The fundamental reason is this: because people continue to give money to developers for buggy games and don't learn, because they believe the excuses people like Founder trot out. The day that people just stop buying buggy games, you'll see developers magically gain the ability to release far less buggy games.

Forget other industries, even in other software development (eg. professional creative tools) a company would lose amazing amounts of revenue and even go broke if they released, much less consistently released, software with as many bugs as some game developers.
 

sr999

Colonel
78 Badges
Nov 15, 2009
1.005
408
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
Thanks, Oblivion. You make some excellent points. I am of the view that the video also make good points. I explore as follows.
It's a bs video with nothing but apologism. A lot of 'this is why mistakes can't be fixed', not a lot of 'why they should get a pass for the mistakes in the first place'.
You are correct. That said, so is the video - from too many decades of bitter experience.
I work with clients. Do you know what would happen if I tried any of the excuses in the video with them? Hahahaha..... x99
Concur. I've worked with hundreds of business software clients, and equally been client of probably hundreds of software providers. Of course you're right.
In business there are remedies. In consumer law there are also remedies (though in this context little as software licenses rarely qualify as would consumer goods). But in both cases the ultimate sanction is voting with your feet. It's the only language business understands (just as you say below).

But again, the fact you, and I, and Paradox, don't dare trot them out doesn't make them less true. I give brief reasons, and explanations (never excuses because I try to be a grownup) and take a hit, usually financial. I know I do when my service or software deliveries go wrong and the framework service agreements or whatever don't cover off the source reason.

So I have a relaxed attitude: there but for the grace of God go all of us. The only reason I've had fewer than my fair share of death march projects is I stumbled across (never was taught) various tricks to either avoid them or resurrect them. But to return to the precise point at issue, I've never solved the dilemma, in a competitive market, of whether to ship now, or ship later with a few less bugs when demand has disappeared. (In particular, as mentioned in the video, third party reliance is often a binary risk - it either doesn't crystallize or it wrecks you)

The fundamental reason is this: because people continue to give money to developers for buggy games and don't learn, because they believe the excuses people like Founder trot out. The day that people just stop buying buggy games, you'll see developers magically gain the ability to release far less buggy games.
I agree with your conclusion's sentiment and humor, but on the off-chance you meant it literally I would disagree. There's a balance there. The facts set out in the video are some of the various factual scenarios that can happen, any of which can cripple or delay a project. To ship, to postpone, or to cancel are the three choices available. The decision is a business one. Sometimes the decision will be good for the business. Sometimes bad for the business. However one thing that's always true is that the decision will not please everyone.
Forget other industries, even in other software development (eg. professional creative tools) a company would lose amazing amounts of revenue and even go broke if they released, much less consistently released, software with as many bugs as some game developers.
On this point, I disagree, for two reasons.
First, Many other software companies, do the same thing once they're beyond a certain size. One company built its empire not on software (which is rarely theirs anyway, as I've personally encountered twice), but on the near-infinite ability of the global market to tolerate partial failure and literally millions of bugs, coupled with the very limited recovery options available for software licensing.

Secondly, games are qualitatively different to other software. To me one key "starter" difference is the RNG. One of my standard techniques is to set up automated "black box" regression testing. This can be done on almost any input and output "states", so long as they can be expressed in persistent data. Such techniques can help even small companies deliver consistently high quality software releases. However games use the RNG as a core element (otherwise it could be simply switched off for testing), and the RNG defeats this technique. While I can begin to imagine some partial workarounds based on seeds, I'd have to work on them for some time to demonstrate theoretical and practical feasibility, especially in multithreading and multi-platform environments; it couldn't catch everything; and it might even have to be done in a game-specific fashion, unsure. If that is right, then games simply lack some of the QA tools available to other software providers.

Finally, and this is not directed at anyone least of all yourself, but I'd love to see the demographics of this foum. If I speculated as to the volume of this thread. I'd hypothesize that the gaming market, especially PDS's market, might be above average in intelligence and education (thus articulate and assertive) and below average in age (thus enthusiastic, under-funded, and inexperienced in business). I cringe from my own memories of the sheer awfulness, naivety, and even stupidity of the letters of complaint the schoolchild version of myself habitually wrote to games companies. In those days I could have given just about anyone here a run for their money... of course I'd be banned now :)
 

Yandersen

First Lieutenant
3 Badges
May 30, 2016
255
85
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
BS. Big wall of BS. If u can't find bugs by rereading your code - it is time to rewrite it ground up. C++, classes, u know. A lot of work? Few days, maybe. But few months passed already - could be completed many times by now. Devs do not have motivation. And they will not have it until u guys approve their slackness.
 
S

Spyhawk

Guest
BS. Big wall of BS. If u can't find bugs by rereading your code - it is time to rewrite it ground up. C++, classes, u know. A lot of work? Few days, maybe. But few months passed already - could be completed many times by now. Devs do not have motivation. And they will not have it until u guys approve their slackness.

Either this is a kind of sarcasm I don't understand, or you have no idea about what you're talking about. Feels very trumpish to me.
 

Sarmatian

Horse Archer
Feb 24, 2007
1.857
2.821
Either this is a kind of sarcasm I don't understand, or you have no idea about what you're talking about. Feels very trumpish to me.

Even though it is definitely NOT that simple or easy, his overarching point stands.

We see DLC after DLC with insane prices attached while many initial issues have not been addressed. DLC are at times in conflict with previous mechanics. You can buy DLC's that are later reduced to irrelevance (Legacy of Rome for CK2). DLC's sometimes change core aspects of the game, and the games becames less playable as a result (development mechanic for EU4 - in the beginning we've had limited options of improving our provinces. Then they've scrapped that and introduced development as a new feature, and you're locked out of using that feature fully unless you pay more. Then they've scrapped westernization and introduced a new mechanic of technological advancement that relies exclusively on development, messing up royally anyone who plays outside of Europe).

So, by updating your game, you could be actually shooting yourself in the foot. You have to stop updating your game, and pray that there are no crucial bugs which were squashed in the next version. So, if Paradox uses this business model, the VERY LEAST they should do is make sure the games are bug free.

People are still thinking that Paradox is the same company it was 10 years ago. Now they are a publicly traded company, answering to a board of investors. They sold plantoid content pack for 17 or so Euros! And had the gall to say it should have been more expensive! There were 6 of those pack in the base game. If that is realistic price, those 6 packs in the base game should have costed 80 without anything else in the game. If that's the price of content the game at lauch should have costed 1500$. And why are they doing that? Because people buy.

Gone are the days when I could have excused bugs because the games were made by a dozen or so enthusiasts. Now their games are priced as AAA titles and they have entire teams creating overpriced DLC instead of addressing issues their games (Stellaris in particular) STILL HAVE 1 YEAR AFTER RELEASE.

Vote with your wallets people and raise awareness, because all the sympathy I had for Paradox is gone by now.
 

LeSingeAffame

Loyal ally to Durcorach the Black Drake
77 Badges
Sep 16, 2012
3.629
2.640
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
People are still thinking that Paradox is the same company it was 10 years ago. Now they are a publicly traded company, answering to a board of investors. They sold plantoid content pack for 17 or so Euros! And had the gall to say it should have been more expensive! There were 6 of those pack in the base game. If that is realistic price, those 6 packs in the base game should have costed 80 without anything else in the game. If that's the price of content the game at lauch should have costed 1500$. And why are they doing that? Because people buy.
I just wanted to say that the Plantoid Species Pack is at 8€ (at least in France), not 17
But your point still stands, 8€ for that seems a little overpriced, as their also is nothing more than a bunch of portraits
 

DreadLindwyrm

Augustus of the North
86 Badges
Jan 31, 2009
10.614
13.419
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Victoria 2
  • 200k Club
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
Even though it is definitely NOT that simple or easy, his overarching point stands.

We see DLC after DLC with insane prices attached while many initial issues have not been addressed. DLC are at times in conflict with previous mechanics. You can buy DLC's that are later reduced to irrelevance (Legacy of Rome for CK2). DLC's sometimes change core aspects of the game, and the games becames less playable as a result (development mechanic for EU4 - in the beginning we've had limited options of improving our provinces. Then they've scrapped that and introduced development as a new feature, and you're locked out of using that feature fully unless you pay more. Then they've scrapped westernization and introduced a new mechanic of technological advancement that relies exclusively on development, messing up royally anyone who plays outside of Europe).

So, by updating your game, you could be actually shooting yourself in the foot. You have to stop updating your game, and pray that there are no crucial bugs which were squashed in the next version. So, if Paradox uses this business model, the VERY LEAST they should do is make sure the games are bug free.

People are still thinking that Paradox is the same company it was 10 years ago. Now they are a publicly traded company, answering to a board of investors. They sold plantoid content pack for 17 or so Euros! And had the gall to say it should have been more expensive! There were 6 of those pack in the base game. If that is realistic price, those 6 packs in the base game should have costed 80 without anything else in the game. If that's the price of content the game at lauch should have costed 1500$. And why are they doing that? Because people buy.

Gone are the days when I could have excused bugs because the games were made by a dozen or so enthusiasts. Now their games are priced as AAA titles and they have entire teams creating overpriced DLC instead of addressing issues their games (Stellaris in particular) STILL HAVE 1 YEAR AFTER RELEASE.

Vote with your wallets people and raise awareness, because all the sympathy I had for Paradox is gone by now.

If you stop updating the game (as a developer), your revenue stream dries up. If the revenue dries up, you can't pay staff to bug fix. If you can't pay staff to bug fix, the game never gets those bugs removed. Now the game is neither getting updates, nor bug fixes. The game dies. Everyone complains the game has been abandoned, and your company dies.

As for the plantoids pack, I seem to remember that it wasn't "we should charge more for this", but that "I would pay more for this". I *may* be mistaken though.

But the point remains - Paradox *are* bug fixing. They *are* responding to customers - and gradually more so. They *are* continuing to supply new content, and improving the games as they go.


Dealing with ongoing bugs isn't always easy. Just because you can identify a bug, and even see why it is happening doesn't mean that it is easy to solve without introducing other (possibly worse) bugs, or breaking other sections of the game.
 
S

Spyhawk

Guest
Even though it is definitely NOT that simple or easy, his overarching point stands.

Gone are the days when I could have excused bugs because the games were made by a dozen or so enthusiasts. Now their games are priced as AAA titles and they have entire teams creating overpriced DLC instead of addressing issues their games (Stellaris in particular) STILL HAVE 1 YEAR AFTER RELEASE.

Vote with your wallets people and raise awareness, because all the sympathy I had for Paradox is gone by now.

Oh yes, absolutely. I just expressed in another thread yesterday that I feel the DLC model is not adequate for Stellaris. But not because the devs are "lazy" or "not motivated", but because you can't fix a flawed core with DLC/expansions that require to build upon these very same foundation.
 

Sarmatian

Horse Archer
Feb 24, 2007
1.857
2.821
I just wanted to say that the Plantoid Species Pack is at 8€ (at least in France), not 17
But your point still stands, 8€ for that seems a little overpriced, as their also is nothing more than a bunch of portraits

Yes. I've must have mixed it up with something. 8 euros was the price. Funny thing is, even with 50% lower price, it's still too expensive. 6 packs in original game means 48 euros worth of portraits and models.

Of course, software doesn't work exactly like that but the overall point stands, as you've said.

If you stop updating the game (as a developer), your revenue stream dries up. If the revenue dries up, you can't pay staff to bug fix. If you can't pay staff to bug fix, the game never gets those bugs removed. Now the game is neither getting updates, nor bug fixes. The game dies. Everyone complains the game has been abandoned, and your company dies.

You're gonna have to do better. I started playing games in the 80's. I still remember the time when patches didn't exist. If there was a bug in the game, you were screwed. In fact I remember a few games where bugs were so severe that you simply couldn't play on. The game would crash on level 8, no matter what you did, but for the most part, games were much less buggy, and not necessarily simpler.

I also remember a later time, when developers patched their games continuously and didn't have to sell overpriced DLC to justify the cost of patching.

Software is different then most products. Today you don't even have to have a physical medium of distributing it. You don't need a warehouse to store it, you don't need transportation to deliver it to your customers, and once you create a working prototype, you can create an infinite number of products for free....

So, just like with other products, you have a break even point. If you sell 500,000 copies, you broke even. If you sell 500,000 cars, you break even. Difference here is that anything after 500,000 cars, you still make only a fraction of the that price. There still the price of human labour, parts, distribution and storage that go into each individual car. In software, once you go over that point, almost a 100% of the retail price is pure profit. So, if Paradox' break even point for Stellaris was, let's say, 200,000 copies and they sold 500,000, they've made such a huge profit that it beggars belief, but you will never see developers going "we made so much money we're going to be adding more content for free and support the game for a long time". On the other hand, you WILL see them moaning about their lack of budget for patches and support if the sales are mediocre.

Stellaris was paradox' most succesfull launch to date and a huge commercial success. I refuse to accept the "we have to have revenues to fix the bugs" excuse.
As for the plantoids pack, I seem to remember that it wasn't "we should charge more for this", but that "I would pay more for this". I *may* be mistaken though.

You are mistaken.
t3_4woekv


But the point remains - Paradox *are* bug fixing. They *are* responding to customers - and gradually more so. They *are* continuing to supply new content, and improving the games as they go.

"Are" in this case doesn't mean anything. There could be one junior programmer on bugs and 50 people on DLC, that statement would still be true. One year after release, people have a right to demand a finished product.

Core game mechanics are still not working properly (missile weapons, sectors, ftl is unbalanced...), and yet Paradox continues to expand the game with new features. They conflict with old features, introduce new bugs and in general create a mess.
Dealing with ongoing bugs isn't always easy. Just because you can identify a bug, and even see why it is happening doesn't mean that it is easy to solve without introducing other (possibly worse) bugs, or breaking other sections of the game.

I agree, but that's not my problem. I won't accept a faulty car because it is a complicated piece of machinery. If you can't make a piece of software properly, don't make software. If you make it and charge me for it, I except it to work. If it doesn't, I except you to do everything in your power to address the issues quickly.
 
S

Spyhawk

Guest
Stellaris was paradox' most succesfull launch to date and a huge commercial success. I refuse to accept the "we have to have revenues to fix the bugs" excuse.

Agree with your post, but keep in mind the earning of Stellaris sales don't all go towards Stellaris bugfixing budget: it can also serves to finance initial development of future projects. Often, this represents several years of development.
 

DreadLindwyrm

Augustus of the North
86 Badges
Jan 31, 2009
10.614
13.419
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Victoria 2
  • 200k Club
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
Stellaris was paradox' most succesfull launch to date and a huge commercial success. I refuse to accept the "we have to have revenues to fix the bugs" excuse.
Accept it or not, if there is no (or vastly reduced income), then developers and QA can't be employed.

You are mistaken.
t3_4woekv
The image link didn't come through.


"Are" in this case doesn't mean anything. There could be one junior programmer on bugs and 50 people on DLC, that statement would still be true. One year after release, people have a right to demand a finished product.

Core game mechanics are still not working properly (missile weapons, sectors, ftl is unbalanced...), and yet Paradox continues to expand the game with new features. They conflict with old features, introduce new bugs and in general create a mess.
Missile weapons are a problem. They are however (from what has been said) proving difficult to rebalance in a way that makes them workable. And again, different solutions are apparently being tried behind the scenes.

Sectors are being continually worked on. They appear to be working fine for me though, if a little too enthusiastic about food production.

FTL being unbalanced? Well, since I see threads that decry all of them as being "too powerful" and others that decry them all as "hopelessly weak", I'd guess that they're all good for different playstyles. I can't stand wormholes (for needing to keep building gates and potentially getting my navy stranded), or hyperlanes - I don't like artificial bottleneck systems where you can effectively get pinned in one arm of a galaxy because someone hostile happens to overlap your only connection to the rest of the galaxy. Does that mean that they're unbalanced? Not really, just that they don't work for me.

I agree, but that's not my problem. I won't accept a faulty car because it is a complicated piece of machinery. If you can't make a piece of software properly, don't make software. If you make it and charge me for it, I except it to work. If it doesn't, I except you to do everything in your power to address the issues quickly.
The thing is, the software does work. It doesn't crash to desktop. It doesn't completely freeze up and require a reboot of your system. It produces (mostly) consistent results, subject to RNG. It has faults, but then again so do virtually all pieces of software. The game can be played, on a stable and reliable basis.

Excel - a piece of databasing/spreadsheet software - has fundamental maths errors included in it that can be triggered by treating it in just the "right" way - and that is a core failing in spreadsheet software.
Various OS keep having massive security holes discovered - and the patches aren't always immediate.
Anti-virus software has been known to detect sections of the host OS as a virus, or even to detect *itself* as a virus.
*Those* are non-working software, where *fundamental* parts of them don't work properly, and to a point where the software can put your computer in jeopardy.


And of course... what's better? Getting an immediate fix to a problem that breaks other parts of the game for an issue that can be coped with, or getting a fix that takes longer, and doesn't involve other parts being badly affected?
 

Grimtalos

Sergeant
7 Badges
May 9, 2016
85
129
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II
Yes. I've must have mixed it up with something. 8 euros was the price. Funny thing is, even with 50% lower price, it's still too expensive. 6 packs in original game means 48 euros worth of portraits and models.




You are mistaken.
t3_4woekv

Odd the picture worked on my phone. It basicly said due to the man hours the plantoids DLC should have been more and if people complain they wont do anymore. Which is totally insane. Somethings I wish the devs would not post as each time they do I lose more faith.

Lets compare the DLC to another companies DLC.

Plantoids is £6.49 for
  • Fifteen new species portraits
  • New templates for plantoid civilian and military ships
  • New cityscape art.

Compare that to The King and the Warlord from Total War: Warhammer which is :
Price : £5.99
And gives you :
Two new Legendary Lords…
…with new quest chains, magic items and skill trees
Two new additional Lord types
Six all-new battlefield units
22 all-new elite Regiments of Renown
Two new campaigns

When you compare them you can see how insane the Paradox pricing is and then to have the fucking balls to say it should have cost more is an insult. It was just a couple of 3d models and 2d portraits. And to top it off you dont even see them in your game if you dont buy it. If I dont buy King and the Warlord I get all that content in the game to play against for Free. The amount of work and polish in the Warhammer DLC is so far ahead of Paradox's yet costs less. How do they even try to justify that, I dont know.

I swear the Paradox devs are in the their own world.
 

Mrakvampire

Captain
88 Badges
Oct 19, 2009
405
244
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
I swear the Paradox devs are in the their own world.

Problem is that PDX (I guess) thinks that they don't have competitors.

And this is a problem for me personally. Cause I love grand strategy games of PDX - CK2, EU4... I love those games and want to have another one in space.
And of course I understand that 6.5 euros for portraits is... How to say it politely... Not a adequate price. But I'm willing to buy all these overpriced DLCs.
I'm willing to buy all expansion, all DLCs, everything. But with one, only one condition - you do as best as you can to develop a good game! I give you my money - you give me a product. Ok, overpriced product, sure, I can live with that. Just give me a good product and show me that you care, that you actually committed to work hard to make sure, that product is good.

But clock is ticking... 1 year passed and what I see? Nothing. I see broken mechanics, gamebreaking bugs, constant vacations, day offs, holidays and complete lack of proper communication.
I do really hope that someday another developer will start making grand strategy games. Maybe this will force PDX to work hard again.
 

Oblivion

Second Lieutenant
May 19, 2017
149
0
Thanks, Oblivion. You make some excellent points. I am of the view that the video also make good points. I explore as follows.

You are correct. That said, so is the video - from too many decades of bitter experience.

Concur. I've worked with hundreds of business software clients, and equally been client of probably hundreds of software providers. Of course you're right.
In business there are remedies. In consumer law there are also remedies (though in this context little as software licenses rarely qualify as would consumer goods). But in both cases the ultimate sanction is voting with your feet. It's the only language business understands (just as you say below).

But again, the fact you, and I, and Paradox, don't dare trot them out doesn't make them less true. I give brief reasons, and explanations (never excuses because I try to be a grownup) and take a hit, usually financial. I know I do when my service or software deliveries go wrong and the framework service agreements or whatever don't cover off the source reason.

So I have a relaxed attitude: there but for the grace of God go all of us. The only reason I've had fewer than my fair share of death march projects is I stumbled across (never was taught) various tricks to either avoid them or resurrect them. But to return to the precise point at issue, I've never solved the dilemma, in a competitive market, of whether to ship now, or ship later with a few less bugs when demand has disappeared. (In particular, as mentioned in the video, third party reliance is often a binary risk - it either doesn't crystallize or it wrecks you)


I agree with your conclusion's sentiment and humor, but on the off-chance you meant it literally I would disagree. There's a balance there. The facts set out in the video are some of the various factual scenarios that can happen, any of which can cripple or delay a project. To ship, to postpone, or to cancel are the three choices available. The decision is a business one. Sometimes the decision will be good for the business. Sometimes bad for the business. However one thing that's always true is that the decision will not please everyone.

On this point, I disagree, for two reasons.
First, Many other software companies, do the same thing once they're beyond a certain size. One company built its empire not on software (which is rarely theirs anyway, as I've personally encountered twice), but on the near-infinite ability of the global market to tolerate partial failure and literally millions of bugs, coupled with the very limited recovery options available for software licensing.

Secondly, games are qualitatively different to other software. To me one key "starter" difference is the RNG. One of my standard techniques is to set up automated "black box" regression testing. This can be done on almost any input and output "states", so long as they can be expressed in persistent data. Such techniques can help even small companies deliver consistently high quality software releases. However games use the RNG as a core element (otherwise it could be simply switched off for testing), and the RNG defeats this technique. While I can begin to imagine some partial workarounds based on seeds, I'd have to work on them for some time to demonstrate theoretical and practical feasibility, especially in multithreading and multi-platform environments; it couldn't catch everything; and it might even have to be done in a game-specific fashion, unsure. If that is right, then games simply lack some of the QA tools available to other software providers.

Finally, and this is not directed at anyone least of all yourself, but I'd love to see the demographics of this foum. If I speculated as to the volume of this thread. I'd hypothesize that the gaming market, especially PDS's market, might be above average in intelligence and education (thus articulate and assertive) and below average in age (thus enthusiastic, under-funded, and inexperienced in business). I cringe from my own memories of the sheer awfulness, naivety, and even stupidity of the letters of complaint the schoolchild version of myself habitually wrote to games companies. In those days I could have given just about anyone here a run for their money... of course I'd be banned now :)
I apologise in advance for just quoting your comment as a whole block but I'm on mobile so my formatting abilities are somewhat hampered.

Re the video - it's rather myopic, in that it pretends to come from a place of some special knowledge (knowing how game development works) when in fact it comes from a place of fairly serious ignorance (not knowing how any other industries work). As examples, it seems to think that deadlines only exist in game development, which is ludicrous. In my line of work, deadlines are much more absolute, if you hadn't done the job by then you generally don't even have the option to delay completion, your client's deal will just fall through and they'll lose potentially millions. Likewise the video thinks that only game devs depend on third party input (game engines, tools, assets). Similarly ludicrous. We subcontract out all the time, but as the party in control, and because we chose the subcontractors (just like how devs choose the game engine, etc), we're 100% accountable to the client for any of their fuck ups. The buck stops with us, because we're the ones making money off the client. Much like how game devs make money off gamers.

I agree that the gaming market likely has a younger demographic. But that is likely actually the reason the market accepts such buggy games time and again, because of sheer naivete and belief in the devs. Don't forget, for all the complaints here, everyone is only here because they bought Stellaris even with Paradox's history of releasing buggy games, and most people while knowing full well that history.
 

Yandersen

First Lieutenant
3 Badges
May 30, 2016
255
85
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
everyone is only here because they bought Stellaris even with Paradox's history of releasing buggy games, and most people while knowing full well that history.
Not me. I got hyped seeing the game I really-really wanted and awaited for long time. And on that hype I did a mistake - I bought the game after watching a half-hour walkthrough on youtube. Foolish rush for my age. The only practically good thing happened with a purchase of Stellaris - I got XP that tells me 3 things:
1) never buy a game before fully watching walkthrough for it to be completely sure what to expect;
2) never buy a game right after release, wait for the responses, lurk the forums and other sources to discover things that may not be revealed by walkthrough representation;
3) never buy a game from unreliable developers - check their product history, ensure they are able to deliver quality products.
As a result, not a single game I bought for a year. Thanks PDX for the experience I bought for forty bucks - it saved me a lot of money, I guess.
But yet, I am not giving up demanding from PDX, since they still did not delivered what I paid for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.