Losing All of Rus to GH from only losing very weak provinces

[unmerged(213179)]

Hey All

First of all, cool i registered my game to this account - i love paradox games, i own more than just CK2 and absolutely happy to pay the asking price, you guys make absolutely smashing games.

Just a bit cranky about a scenario when playing the kingdom of rus and losing to the GH. I'm a developer, so i use the term "bug" loosely, people can easily argue that this is a feature and I'm completely in the wrong. Thats fine. I'm about mounting a case changing the way this works because I really dont think the way the systems models this is what would happen in reality.

You can see my first post here - http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...k-provinces-(30-)-and-was-forced-to-surrender

But to recap, I'm playing Rus and the Golden Horde are coming for the first time. 100K of them - eeek. The Kingdom of Rus isnt ready, I feel like a "Vladimir the Unready". I can only pull about 80K of troops from all of Rus at this moment, so I'm out numbered and I'm going to suffer attrition when they won't I can JUST win this if i let the GH come in and take chunks of land, ok they dont have attrition but they are fighting in stacks of 20K and i have about 40K of troops. If i fight each stack on provinces that provide little defensive bonus I might be able to kill some stacks to the point where maybe I can whittle each down (if they were fighting as 100K stack i had no hope).

So I want them to come in and spread out, so I'm letting them cap some of my crapping eastern provinces taht only have 1 castle and very little income and arent my religion - they are pretty much throw away provices. Land wise they are about 25% of my area, but they are pretty worthless to me.

Here is are some screenshots. I did a couple of reloads so they might not be EXACT but there is still a case to my argument


This screenshot above is the aftermath of the battles, I did really great but lost almost all my force, I'm left with about 14K of troops to their 35K. I can probably do another raising of levies and pool my forces and hope to win. This isnt a race its a marathon. You can see they horrible provinces on the east they have taken (meh they can keep them i really dont care), but its such a teeney amount thats really irrelevant to the kingdom of Rus.

But look at this screenshot and you will see how the battle tallies are added up. I have 28% for my battles, yay i earnt that, but they have a massive whopping 68% for their occupation. But wait i thought they only have 26% of my land and its all rubbish ? I'm going to lose here because as time goes by the more your occupation score increases, i shouldnt be on the path to a loss here IMO. Not i can raise another army and recover. But yeah they ended up winning here.

My problem is that the GH can come in and take them, get 100% and go "you lose, the kingdom of rus is Golden Horde now". They do have good occupy points, but no real battle points for war resolution. But again they are only holding the junk provinces of my kingdom. We really need to have a weight modifier on the provinces they hold indicating what sort of value of the state they hold. In real life, all my core ethnic and religiously inclined russians are in the west and havent been taken. I'm ok perhaps if they won and reformed the east as a reformed tyumen (sp?) but in reality all the people in the west wouldnt stand for them becoming a Golden Horde country just because they lost some lesser provincial satellite provinces to the east, we're more an occupying force there until they have 100 yrs of being Rus.

So yeah love the games absolutely, if you see merit on what i have said below your continued support and development of what I consider the premier game in your arsenal would be very appreciated. (I cant get enough of the roleplay of the families and the politics of this game just is awesome, its way more personable than eu3 even though i love that game to death too).

Also just as a side-note, I ended up defeating the GH in this scenario back a few years and upping the power of the monarchy and pumping up all my levies laws so that i could pull the troops I needed. In the end i was pulling about 100K through full realm levies and although the attrition was a bitch as said before the GH tend to roam in 20K packs so i was able to just defeat them and keep their score low enough not to force a surrender.

OK thanks for reading.

 

[unmerged(213179)]

Yeah I just played this through and they had really high unjustified occupation score and i had a huge battle victory score and they still ended up just forcing surrender and me becoming their vassal.

 

[K-vald]

Hello there!
I understand your concern that they can enforce your surrender when having all the scrappy provinces. One thing to take a note of is that if you would surrender, the scenario would be that of which you described; they should only gain the provinces they have conquered, leaving you with your Western provinces whilst they have your former Eastern provinces.

The warscore system is constructed this way to prevent scenarios where you are facing a large enemy, if it wasn't, you would have to conquer all of the holdings before surrender which would be quite troublesome, especially if you're fighting for several provinces in wars after wars.
If you could manage to get some of those provinces back you would of course lower their warscore.

I'm sorry I can't get you any good solution to your issue but I would say that this is rather a case of many a little makes a mickle.

 

[raw]

One thing to take a note of is that if you would surrender, the scenario would be that of which you described

Just to help my understanding: If I surrender to the mongols, their hordes will only get the counties they are occupying? Is this also true for when the horde directly spawns on my counties?

 

[K-vald]

Just to help my understanding: If I surrender to the mongols, their hordes will only get the counties they are occupying? Is this also true for when the horde directly spawns on my counties?

That's the deal for that type of invasion at least, or should be. I'm uncertain of how it works with the spawning, unfortunately. So I can't go into detail on that one.

 

[unmerged(213179)]

Thanks for your feedback. I honestly think that you could fix this by having more realistic weighting on the occupation. Also even if this was reversed and i was the GH it wouldnt be fair to be able to take over a country so easily. 5-7% occupation points for minor provinces is way over the top.

Thats what i think anyways. Like i said, i still beat the GH! hehe

 

[K-vald]

Thanks for your feedback. I honestly think that you could fix this by having more realistic weighting on the occupation. Also even if this was reversed and i was the GH it wouldnt be fair to be able to take over a country so easily. 5-7% occupation points for minor provinces is way over the top.

Thats what i think anyways. Like i said, i still beat the GH! hehe

You have a point, but this is a rather rare occasion and I would say that this issue isn't present as such an issue when it concerns other participants. As you have discovered the hard way, GH isn't supposed to be a walk in the park and changing the warscore system would probably result in a balance issue there, amongst other situations as well.

 

[unmerged(213179)]

Hehe yeah well maybe if you put a percentage weight onto the occupancy rating, it would be better imo. You're right in being a bit careful though i guess, when you have a small territory it could throw things out of kilter.

But I think that concludes the discussion and thank you for getting back to me! You guys are certainly the experts at what you do you produce fantastic games, I appreciate the effort to communicate to me a humble end user

 

[raw]

That's the deal for that type of invasion at least, or should be. I'm uncertain of how it works with the spawning, unfortunately. So I can't go into detail on that one.

In my game of Rus I had the Timurids spawning on my belongings around the aral sea. The WS reached 100% before my troops managed to arrive and consequently Timurids conquered whole of Rus. That's why I was asking wether surrendering could help this issue. I see that as somewhat problematic for Sword of Islam since the caliphates and many sultanates are on the right border of the map.

 

[K-vald]

In my game of Rus I had the Timurids spawning on my belongings around the aral sea. The WS reached 100% before my troops managed to arrive and consequently Timurids conquered whole of Rus. That's why I was asking wether surrendering could help this issue. I see that as somewhat problematic for Sword of Islam since the caliphates and many sultanates are on the right border of the map.

Hmm, I'll check up on that and see why that's happening. It can be WAD and in that case I am totally wrong, but as of my knowledge it shouldn't be that way. But it might be a special invasion CB just for the GH.

UPDATE: I'm not able to reproduce that in my version but I would suggest you to wait until the patch and then try it to see if the same issue is still present.