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Searry

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I think there should be some kind of a limit after which you begin to gain inflation from looting. Something like 200 ducats.
Looting is so powerful now, you actually want to drag your wars to years long loot fests it's really getting silly and exploity.
 
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magnusvejby

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I agree looting should give inflation, but the limit should be based by each countries (Is this the right gramma???) own development not just a flat number.
 

Danfish77

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200 is too high a cap, it should be scaled just like in peace offers. Looting should have more long-term drawbacks to prevent wars dragging forever, perhaps increasing revolt risk or reducing supply? Increasing war-exhaustion?
 

Searry

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200 is too high a cap, it should be scaled just like in peace offers. Looting should have more long-term drawbacks to prevent wars dragging forever, perhaps increasing revolt risk or reducing supply? Increasing war-exhaustion?
I was just throwing a number. 200 sounds high indeed.
 
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niallmcfc

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200 is too high a cap, it should be scaled just like in peace offers. Looting should have more long-term drawbacks to prevent wars dragging forever, perhaps increasing revolt risk or reducing supply? Increasing war-exhaustion?

It does, if you conquer the land you've looted. And iirc attrition rises as it's looted. But why should looting cause negative effects? It's pretty valid as it is, and you do have to factor in paying your army vs getting loot.
 

Danfish77

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It does, if you conquer the land you've looted. And iirc attrition rises as it's looted. But why should looting cause negative effects? It's pretty valid as it is, and you do have to factor in paying your army vs getting loot.
Oh, of course. I think the loot system is pretty good as it stands, but I feel like there should be more to disincentivize people staying in wars to basically "loot farm." I suppose that's a separate discussion from the inflation suggestion, though.
 

Jomini

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Oh, of course. I think the loot system is pretty good as it stands, but I feel like there should be more to disincentivize people staying in wars to basically "loot farm." I suppose that's a separate discussion from the inflation suggestion, though.


Why? That is literally how many of the period campaigns were structured. The Akinci literally never stopped looting over the border (even with a peace treaty). Likewise, the sack of Rome ended only when the loot ran out for Charles V's troops. Looting was how armies were paid in this era and looting enemy land had virtually no negative consequences (aside from the looted populace hating you).

If anything, we want to go the other way and encourage more sustained destruction of provinces in wars. The thirty years war massively depopulated Germany and a lot of other campaigns where likewise ruinous for the territory on which they occurred. Making it harder to have sustained, damaging wars just removes risks from the game.

Certainly this would be murder to work into the UI well.

So no, this sounds like a bad, bad idea.
 
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Searry

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I think I might have found the solution. Instead of causing inflation, the province recovery speed would be a lot much higher. Like 2,5 years.
 

Danfish77

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Why? That is literally how many of the period campaigns were structured. The Akinci literally never stopped looting over the border (even with a peace treaty). Likewise, the sack of Rome ended only when the loot ran out for Charles V's troops. Looting was how armies were paid in this era and looting enemy land had virtually no negative consequences (aside from the looted populace hating you).

If anything, we want to go the other way and encourage more sustained destruction of provinces in wars. The thirty years war massively depopulated Germany and a lot of other campaigns where likewise ruinous for the territory on which they occurred. Making it harder to have sustained, damaging wars just removes risks from the game.

Certainly this would be murder to work into the UI well.

So no, this sounds like a bad, bad idea.

I'm not sure what OP intended, but I think you're misunderstanding my argument. Looting is good to be in the game, it should hurt the looted disproportionately more than the looter, and it should be a major part of the game and an incentive to go to war.

The problem, as I see it, is that once you have completely beaten a country and should be making peace, there is an incentive to prolong the war and just roam around their territory for decades, looting the same provinces over and over like some kind of twisted Farmville, only watching for war exhaustion. So I want a mechanism to make dragging out a war for farming purposes more painful.

...which is not to say that I'm not still wrong, but I think the merits should be of the argument.
 
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Jomini

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I'm not sure what OP intended, but I think you're misunderstanding my argument. Looting is good to be in the game, it should hurt the looted disproportionately more than the looter, and it should be a major part of the game and an incentive to go to war.

The problem, as I see it, is that once you have completely beaten a country and should be making peace, there is an incentive to prolong the war and just roam around their territory for decades, looting the same provinces over and over like some kind of twisted Farmville, only watching for war exhaustion. So I want a mechanism to make dragging out a war for farming purposes more painful.

...which is not to say that I'm not still wrong, but I think the merits should be of the argument.

Prolonging wars to keep looting is historical. The Sack of Rome only ended when the loot ran out. This isn't the Victorian or Modern Eras where wars were necessarily treasury draining affairs, many wars were fought for loot and in many campaigns loot was a driving strategic feature. Taking that out removes strategic depth and makes the game less historical.

If anything, the call for peace is the ahistorical mechanism. Now sure, maybe there should be an increase in the recovery time to looting, I'd be fine with it being very low until you go a year or more with no looting (as would be historical), but if you really want to go all horde/Akinci/Knights and just loot that should be an option with appropriate costs. Getting the costs balanced ... okay that is a bit tougher ... but

Inflation, is not going to do that. We really don't want a good strategy to be baiting the AI into looting itself into bankruptcy with high inflation. And that is a non-trivial thing to make looting painful enough to the player to not prolong wars to do it ... but not so painful that we end up with gimped AIs. If playing farmville is "too good", then just rejigger the numbers. Do not put in an incredibly hard to implement UI feature that the AI will suck at and make the game easier and less interesting.
 
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Searry

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Prolonging wars to keep looting is historical. The Sack of Rome only ended when the loot ran out. This isn't the Victorian or Modern Eras where wars were necessarily treasury draining affairs, many wars were fought for loot and in many campaigns loot was a driving strategic feature. Taking that out removes strategic depth and makes the game less historical.

If anything, the call for peace is the ahistorical mechanism. Now sure, maybe there should be an increase in the recovery time to looting, I'd be fine with it being very low until you go a year or more with no looting (as would be historical), but if you really want to go all horde/Akinci/Knights and just loot that should be an option with appropriate costs. Getting the costs balanced ... okay that is a bit tougher ... but

Inflation, is not going to do that. We really don't want a good strategy to be baiting the AI into looting itself into bankruptcy with high inflation. And that is a non-trivial thing to make looting painful enough to the player to not prolong wars to do it ... but not so painful that we end up with gimped AIs. If playing farmville is "too good", then just rejigger the numbers. Do not put in an incredibly hard to implement UI feature that the AI will suck at and make the game easier and less interesting.
Yes yes, it's historical but that isn't the point. We have to remember this is a game.
 
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Jomini

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Yes yes, it's historical but that isn't the point. We have to remember this is a game.
Yeah, but it is also something that has to balanced around a functional AI and you know actually being interesting strategy. The game desperately needs more strategic concerns that don't pass through the monarch point filter; adding inflation just means that there is some monarch spend (ideas or directly) to deal with inflation. As such we lose one of the few venues to punish your enemies (or for the AI to punish you) without accruing point costs.

The AI is another harsh problem. The AI is really crappy with what it should siege and I could completely see an AI that gets hung up at a straight crossing inflate itself to oblivion. I mean with the funkiness of war enthusiasm you can get some very long AI wars and the AI often will hop from war to war ... high inflation is just killer against the AI and I'd bet on the AI being unable to manage this (particularly if the player tries to trap it).

Lastly, the UI for looting is already not the best, figuring out and displaying how much inflation you are going to get from a province or from 40 provinces is non-trivial. There is a crapton of stuff already on the province screen and this isn't a static feature.

On purely game terms, this sounds like something that is needlessly complex - the sort of thing that keeps getting tossed around that is too weak to hurt the player, but too strong for the AI to play well.
 

Searry

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I'm sure the UI wouldn't be a problem. If looting would add inflation, you would put a new line in the inflation thingy in the budget screen, that's it.
 

Woifee

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Should I as the Nation even get Money from looting?

Plundering and raping have been the legal sold of soldiers these days.

You might say if they loot i have to pay less to them, but spldiers and mercs expected both.

And yes it should increase influation. There is more money and gold in the circulation, prices rises, Inflation happens.

But the whole inflation and production system needs an overhaul i guess.
 

Jomini

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Should I as the Nation even get Money from looting?

Plundering and raping have been the legal sold of soldiers these days.

You might say if they loot i have to pay less to them, but spldiers and mercs expected both.

And yes it should increase influation. There is more money and gold in the circulation, prices rises, Inflation happens.

But the whole inflation and production system needs an overhaul i guess.

Given that historically the average army was not paid at all in this era and the game has regular wages deducted for armies (along with a laughably poor ability to raise an army quickly and massive strategic disincentives to follow the mobilization frameworks of the era) this seems a bit silly. Soldiers literally signed up with no promise of regular pay, just a chance to loot on campaign. Given all the other ahistorical stuff, I'm going to go with absolutely yes it should go into the treasury.

War often resulted in a budget surplus in this era - Crimea basically fought every war this war, the Ottomans used a hybrid war strategy that was self funding in the early expansion era, etc.

Historically, most of the expenses in the EUIV era were paid privately without going through the public purse. Virtually all transports and light ships were privately funded and impressed as needed. Virtually all trade buildings were privately financed. If we are going to bring all these private costs onto the ledger of the public purse, then it makes sense to bring looting in full onto the other side.

I'm sure the UI wouldn't be a problem. If looting would add inflation, you would put a new line in the inflation thingy in the budget screen, that's it.
And it is this type of thinking which is why I'm sure it will be a nightmare. In order for a punishment mechanic to work, you need to be able to predict the punishment. Trying to work backwards from a single line entry just goes back to the old hidden knowledge routine where players who do massive tests and read the boards gets access to secret knowledge while everyone else needs to use a spreadsheet to determine the values.

In order to make good cost/benefit analysis I need to know how much penalty comes from looting THIS province at THIS time (given that my income can change drastically during war when I suddenly have all my Baltic ports blockaded or when I remove said blockade). That is not something that works inline, it is too dynamic.
 
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