Looks like AI and performance are in the shitters again

[Juboboman]

There is a difference between release bugs and "AI doesn't build ships or buildings" game crippling bugs. The fact that such a fundamental issue was not discovered in playtesting makes me wonder if "playtesting" actually took place. Again this is all assuming the post on reddit was true with the latest build. But I simply don't understand how the past however many months of dev MP sessions, game testing, and all that someone didn't realize "hey... uh... 300 years in and the AI has 2k fleet power and isn't building any buildings"

I've been a proponent of public testing of major patches. Whenever PDX comments on that proposal they always handwave it away with "well more testers won't find more bugs anyway because so many reports are false or innacurate". And while that sounds nice... I would wager one bug public testing would reveal are the AI not building ships or buildings with maxed out resources.

Maybe, just maybe, that means they could be discovered and fixed (and this is a shocker I know) before the 20 dollar DLC is released so it's somewhat workable when we actually get our hands on it. Rather than waiting 3 weeks for hotfixes and patches to iron out obvious gamebreaking bugs.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I'm a bit optimistic some of the AI will be fixed before release or next week. Not completely fixed, the AI will still be garbage, but "still raise actual fleets" garbage.

"But I simply don't understand how the past however many months of dev MP sessions game testing and all that didn't realize "hey... uh... 300 years in and the AI has 2k fleet power and isn't building any buildings"
@Juboboman

It might be a very recent bug. After all, one fix might break something else entirely, and it isn't impossible for something changed even just last Friday to completely break the game.

 

[Askorti]

I don't think anyone expects the update to be flawless. But come on, the AI not building anything, be it buildings or fleets while sitting on topped up resources? That's a bit too much to accept.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I don't think anyone expects the update to be flawless. But come on, the AI not building anything, be it buildings or fleets while sitting on topped up resources? That's a bit too much to accept.

Hopefully, a bit too much for Paradox to accept.

Like, I don't think AI has ever been that bad, even in initial release, and this may be a "top priority" bug fix.

The bad performance might even be related to the bad AI. Perhaps there is a hiccup or a loop somewhere in there that needs to be ironed down.

 

[Danarcis]

I don't think anyone expects the update to be flawless. But come on, the AI not building anything, be it buildings or fleets while sitting on topped up resources? That's a bit too much to accept.

It could be as simple as a single AI weight that was off in the model they released to reviewers, so we really cannot tell until 2.2 is released.

 

[hewhoispale]

I don't think anyone expects the update to be flawless. But come on, the AI not building anything, be it buildings or fleets while sitting on topped up resources? That's a bit too much to accept.

It is a bit too much to accept. Which is why I'm confused that so many people here are taking this one assertion as gospel and not a partial gleaning of some edgecase.

 

[Siri]

Personally I don't mind a buggy mess if it means I get it a month earlier rather than wait that extra month. I feel like people would be less upset if they called it an early access beta for people who already bought it though, just to temper expectations. I don't think there would be any shortage of people who feel the same way I do, I just want to try out the new stuff. If that means I get to do so earlier and help improve the game, I will happily do so.

 

[Swordy_]

Some general thoughts that I'm going to bullet because I'm too hungover to write paragraphs:

• One of the big things mentioned on reddit that is not being mentioned here enough, is that all of the early access guys were given pre-release/beta versions and not the final release code. I think it was Wiz on Twitter who stated that one of the issues pointed out was already fixed in release.
• AI is in my opinion as a professional software developer, BY FAR, the hardest aspect of game development programming. The guys who do this well are like magic super geniuses (to lowly people like me anyway). Just the predictive ability to see how all the parts interact with each other is a skill in itself and it's why AAA title with hundreds of millions in budget still have rather terrible AI. And this doesn't mention the fact that if you make AI that is too good then it feels to the player that the AI is bad. Or it has massive performance issues. Software development is definitely part skill, part art but in my opinion AI programming in these types of games falls much more under the art aspect than most areas. It's a tough job and the guys on it deserve a little extra slack. Picking up an AI programming book is like reading a book of witchcraft.
• As the game has completely changed economically, I imagine that this would cause a pretty major rewrite of the AI system and like all development, you can't really get it right first time. QA can only catch so much because they don't have thousands of players with different setups and configs and civs playing on it.
• I don't like how some people are dismissing the post because it's from a Youtuber or something. We have to take it at face value and presume all the things within it are true to their experience.
• We don't actually know that the AI is broken. Not building ships/fleets that sit there eating up maintenance might be a perfectly legitimate tactic when you're the largest and unchallenged power in the galaxy. We haven't got enough data on the game state to really draw any conclusions.

I've pre-ordered MegaCorp because I enjoy Paradox games and wish to support them as much as possible. I understand that things might not be working efficiently on release but unlike many other developers, I don't think that people can really say that Paradox doesn't make efforts to fix these parts of their games in time. This is my purchasing decision - no hate to those who look at it differently.

Also, if you play multiplayer then you don't really have to worry about AI

 

[Elimdur]

Personally I don't mind a buggy mess if it means I get it a month earlier rather than wait that extra month.

Unfortunately this mindset is the reason companies get away with releasing bugridden messes as AAA titles like Fallout 76. Note that I am not meaning to put Paradox on one level with the Bethesda bullshittery but they have to be hold up to a higher standard than them. If they would really go down the same route Bethesda did, they would just hurt themselves which I do not want. I like Paradox and their games, which is also why I am so passionate about it.

 

[Gaen]

There is a difference between release bugs and "AI doesn't build ships or buildings" game crippling bugs. The fact that such a fundamental issue was not discovered in playtesting makes me wonder if "playtesting" actually took place. Again this is all assuming the post on reddit was true with the latest build. But I simply don't understand how the past however many months of dev MP sessions, game testing, and all that someone didn't realize "hey... uh... 300 years in and the AI has 2k fleet power and isn't building any buildings"

Let me remind you all about the CK2 AI levie disband bug from four years ago insidently another christmas release, what was shall be what shall be was.

 

[Siri]

Unfortunately this mindset is the reason companies get away with releasing bugridden messes as AAA titles like Fallout 76. Note that I am not meaning to put Paradox on one level with the Bethesda bullshittery but they have to be hold up to a higher standard than them. If they would really go down the same route Bethesda did, they would just hurt themselves which I do not want. I like Paradox and their games, which is also why I am so passionate about it.

I don't actually think these things are the same. For one, this is not an initial release of a game, and all the old versions of Stellaris are available to play even after 2.2 releases. This is a matter of an update coming a month later or not, maybe two months, I couldn't really say. As I said, I think a good measure would have been to call it an early access beta and just say that people who want a complete release can wait that extra month or two for when it is deserving of a release.

Personally I also feel that Bethesda's problem is one of attitude more than that the game is buggy. When the developer says what amounts to "You don't like bugs? Our long term fans expect bugs and it wouldn't feel like a Bethesda game without them" that's deserving of burning at a stake, but that's not what is happening in this case.

 

[mephy]

It's an opinion by one player, who played one campaign in an unknown build. From the data he provided, we don't know if this was a bug limited to his specific playthrough or if his build is even anywhere close to the release build. I know people are really excited for this update, I certainly am... but please just chill when someone gives a personal opinion on very poor data.

 

[Elimdur]

As I said, I think a good measure would have been to call it an early access beta and just say that people who want a complete release can wait that extra month or two for when it is deserving of a release.

I think we share similar opinions in that regard.

Concerning Bethesdas PR attitude, I did not even start on that part, just meant the state their product was released in.

 

[tapewormlondon]

Someone broke their embargo in possibly the worst way imaginable. PMSL.

Wouldn't be surprised if YouTubers see themselves handed games to LP much closer to launch from here on in. That or only established channels will get them from Pdox.

Seriously bad practice.

Hope the OP of that Reddit post didn't sign an NDA, or they are in big do do.

 

[Paradoxon]

And this is why there is such a thing as a review block.

Five pages of people screaming about a beta version being broken and treating it as it were the final version. Fact is, we have no info outside of "AI is bad". We don't know why it's that way. We don't know when it appeared. We don't know if it's still the case in Paradox's internal build.

If Thursday, when 2.2 is out, the AI still behaves that way, then please, feel free to complain. But right now, you guys are complaining about a beta version having bugs. Right now, the only thing you're doing is giving PDX a very good reason not to give pre-release versions to streamers anymore, because that's the only issue at hand here.

 

[The-False-Being26]

You know the 2 things I wanted from this patch were a better AI and performance. This was higher on my list than any new feature I will probably skip buying the new DLC for a few months if AI and performance suck.

 

[David12596]

And this is why there is such a thing as a review block.

Seven pages of people screaming about a beta version being broken and treating it as it were the final version. Fact is, we have no info outside of "AI is bad". We don't know why it's that way. We don't know when it appeared. We don't know if it's still the case in Paradox's internal build.

If Thursday, when 2.2 is out, the AI still behaves that way, then please, feel free to complain. But right now, you guys are complaining about a beta version having bugs. Right now, the only thing you're doing is giving PDX a very good reason not to give pre-release versions to streamers anymore, because that's the only issue at hand here.

Well this thread just tells me that i'm going to do a test game when 2.2 comes out with only AI and see how they perform myself by just observing them. It would be very disappointing for me to commit to a multiplayer game with some AIs if the AIs are weak. Rather just get more people then for my game and have no AI then.

 

[Elimdur]

And this is why there is such a thing as a review block.

Five pages of people screaming about a beta version being broken and treating it as it were the final version.

This is a quote from reddit by Meneth: "Earlier embargo would not really affect that. Generally speaking, most release builds are finalized at least a week in advance of release, preferably more. By the time press get a build, no more changes generally happen."
Which means it pretty much is the version that is going to be released (if there is no day one patch for the update).

 

[Paradoxon]

This is a quote from reddit by Meneth: "Earlier embargo would not really affect that. Generally speaking, most release builds are finalized at least a week in advance of release, preferably more. By the time press get a build, no more changes generally happen."
Which means it pretty much is the version that is going to be released (if there is no day one patch for the update).

We also have confirmation that two of the bugs people are complaining about (Caravaneers giving too much money/Sectors being badly generated) have already been fixed, or are about to, so I would say that statement is at least partially inaccurate.

 

[Askorti]

About whether they're still fixing things, I've got two quotes from them on Facebook:

The game is always being worked on. Both the current build and future features.

No known bug is being left to itself, at any time. That is true in this case as well and, as always, the work on a release build continues as long as possible to make sure it's enjoyable on release.

Whether that means they're still working on it today and will be tomorrow, I don't know.