Lombards

[Nortrix]

It has nothing to do with Wielbark or no Wielbark, but more with signs of Scandinavian influence in the Wielbark culture. As I've pointed out numerous times, this Scandinavian influence first appears AFTER the first mentions by Roman authors, so there's not a single archeological evidence indicating that the Goths came from Scandinavia. In fact, it is possible to compare the settlements and burial sites of the earlier Oskywie culture, and one finds that there's a continuity between Oskywie and Wielbark:


Just blindly believing Jordanes's bloody Getica is of no help.

So i read your link, good read. However i wil not go into every detail. That would take forever. And this is not eaven on topic conserning the Lombards.

From link:
http://www.academia.edu/36853596/Th...ges._500BC_500AD_Vol._4_Warszawa_2016_217_255


"Historical interpretations

The recognition that the shift in the territory of Wielbark culture corresponds to the migration of its population through central and eastern Europe, the establishment of the chronology of
this phenomenon, and the nature of its associated culture change – this is regarded as a major success of Polish pro-tohistorical archaeology of the last half century.
The research in this field greatly assisted the progress of studies combining archaeological with historical sources. In attempting to identify the names of peoples and concrete historical events that may be related to the societies of Wielbark culture, we may relyon two groups of written sources:
1) contemporary accountsof Roman historians and geographers and
2) the tribal tradi-tion of the Goths recorded in Historia Gothica (approximately526–533) of Cassiodorus, a high official at the court of the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great (Wolfram 1990: 15–16).
Originally in twelve volumes, the Gothic History is now lost to us, and is known only from an abridged version written by Jordanes in 551 (De origine actibusque Getarum,
or the Getica). The Getica is ascribed with a special signif-icance because in recording the early history of the Goths Cassiodorus/Jordanes presumably drew on prisca carmina
,traditional songs transmitted verbally down the generations.They tell of the cradle of the Goths, and of their fellow tribe the Gepids, on the island Scandia, identified with the Scan-
dinavian Peninsula, from which area they sailed under the leadership of their king Berig over the sea to the land of Gothiskandza, found somewhere on the southern coast of
the Baltic. In the reign of Filimer, the fifth generation after Berig, the Goths departed from Gothiskandza and made for the land of Oium, presumably lying on the northern Black Seacoast (Wolfram 1990: 47–53; Bierbrauer 1994: 75–76; 94–95;Kolendo 2006: 24).

Despite many research problems associated with the specific nature of oral tradition, which lacks a firm anchoring in time and uses rather vague geographic terms, the image
of Gothic tribes on the move agrees quite well with settle-ment and culture changes associated with the migration of the Wielbark culture population and the emergence of the
Cherniakhiv culture."

"The summarize:

In summarizing our discussion on the subject of Wiel-bark culture we wish to stress that the heterogeneous burial rite recorded in its territory is an indirect indication of the het-erogeneous character of its constituent societies. In addition, the departures from the standard model of funeral practices shows that the Wielbark culture population was open to new models and was susceptible to rapid acculturation. The mixed character of the societies residing in northern and eastern Polish lands during the first centuries AD also finds reflection in the written sources of Antiquity. The accounts handed down by Tacitus, Ptolemy, and Jordanes make it possible to locate in this territory the homeland of various peoples – especially the Goths, Gepids, Rugii, and the Lemovii . As such the population living in Wielbark culture territory does not appear to have formed a political and ethnic unity. But common features of the burial rite and material culture which are observed across its vast territory suggest that they were closely connected by ties of a religious, social, and economic nature. It may be safe to assume therefore that Wielbark culture societies formed a structure described in historical and social sciences as a communicative community."

Considering their all probably germanic it makes sense in a tribal coalition sense.
However this discussion is about the year 0. 300 Years after game start.

And 300 BC you would not eaven have the The Przeworsk or the The Oksywie culture present that predates the wielbark. While much of the wielbark culture like the stone circles were already present in Scandinavia as early as 500 BC. Then you got place names like Vestergøtaland= westgothland, Østergothaland= Eastgothland, Gotland= Gothland. Clear resemblence. Any simmilar resemblence in Poland is non existant. Gdansk, Elblag, Grudziadz etc does not have the same resemblance. Sorry but i find it unlikely the goths originated in Poland. Same with other germanic peoples. If so then it shuld be a bigger presence of both language and DNA. The Gothic bible of the 4th century clearly show the germanic language that eaven today as a scandinavian or probably aslo a german or dutch you understand quite much. Polish however show no presence of germanic, not eaven in place names making me think it was never a germanic homeland, more so a slavic one.

Edit: Homeland in the sense of origin of culture/language/DNA.

 

[Martynios]

So i read your link, good read. However i wil not go into every detail. That would take forever. And this is not eaven on topic conserning the Lombards.

From link:
http://www.academia.edu/36853596/Th...ges._500BC_500AD_Vol._4_Warszawa_2016_217_255


"Historical interpretations

The recognition that the shift in the territory of Wielbark culture corresponds to the migration of its population through central and eastern Europe, the establishment of the chronology of
this phenomenon, and the nature of its associated culture change – this is regarded as a major success of Polish pro-tohistorical archaeology of the last half century.
The research in this field greatly assisted the progress of studies combining archaeological with historical sources. In attempting to identify the names of peoples and concrete historical events that may be related to the societies of Wielbark culture, we may relyon two groups of written sources:
1) contemporary accountsof Roman historians and geographers and
2) the tribal tradi-tion of the Goths recorded in Historia Gothica (approximately526–533) of Cassiodorus, a high official at the court of the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great (Wolfram 1990: 15–16).
Originally in twelve volumes, the Gothic History is now lost to us, and is known only from an abridged version written by Jordanes in 551 (De origine actibusque Getarum,
or the Getica). The Getica is ascribed with a special signif-icance because in recording the early history of the Goths Cassiodorus/Jordanes presumably drew on prisca carmina
,traditional songs transmitted verbally down the generations.They tell of the cradle of the Goths, and of their fellow tribe the Gepids, on the island Scandia, identified with the Scan-
dinavian Peninsula, from which area they sailed under the leadership of their king Berig over the sea to the land of Gothiskandza, found somewhere on the southern coast of
the Baltic. In the reign of Filimer, the fifth generation after Berig, the Goths departed from Gothiskandza and made for the land of Oium, presumably lying on the northern Black Seacoast (Wolfram 1990: 47–53; Bierbrauer 1994: 75–76; 94–95;Kolendo 2006: 24).

Despite many research problems associated with the specific nature of oral tradition, which lacks a firm anchoring in time and uses rather vague geographic terms, the image
of Gothic tribes on the move agrees quite well with settle-ment and culture changes associated with the migration of the Wielbark culture population and the emergence of the
Cherniakhiv culture."

"The summarize:

In summarizing our discussion on the subject of Wiel-bark culture we wish to stress that the heterogeneous burial rite recorded in its territory is an indirect indication of the het-erogeneous character of its constituent societies. In addition, the departures from the standard model of funeral practices shows that the Wielbark culture population was open to new models and was susceptible to rapid acculturation. The mixed character of the societies residing in northern and eastern Polish lands during the first centuries AD also finds reflection in the written sources of Antiquity. The accounts handed down by Tacitus, Ptolemy, and Jordanes make it possible to locate in this territory the homeland of various peoples – especially the Goths, Gepids, Rugii, and the Lemovii . As such the population living in Wielbark culture territory does not appear to have formed a political and ethnic unity. But common features of the burial rite and material culture which are observed across its vast territory suggest that they were closely connected by ties of a religious, social, and economic nature. It may be safe to assume therefore that Wielbark culture societies formed a structure described in historical and social sciences as a communicative community."

Considering their all probably germanic it makes sense in a tribal coalition sense.
However this discussion is about the year 0. 300 Years after game start.

And 300 BC you would not eaven have the The Przeworsk or the The Oksywie culture present that predates the wielbark. While much of the wielbark culture like the stone circles were already present in Scandinavia as early as 500 BC. Then you got place names like Vestergøtaland= westgothland, Østergothaland= Eastgothland, Gotland= Gothland. Clear resemblence. Any simmilar resemblence in Poland is non existant. Gdansk, Elblag, Grudziadz etc does not have the same resemblance. Sorry but i find it unlikely the goths originated in Poland. Same with other germanic peoples. If so then it shuld be a bigger presence of both language and DNA. The Gothic bible of the 4th century clearly show the germanic language that eaven today as a scandinavian or probably aslo a german or dutch you understand quite much. Polish however show no presence of germanic, not eaven in place names making me think it was never a germanic homeland, more so a slavic one.

Edit: Homeland in the sense of origin of culture/language/DNA.

Writing more words doesn’t equal making more sense.

 

[Nortrix]

Writing more words doesn’t equal making more sense.

But you make sense right?

 

[Orkonkel]

Can we stop ridiculing people for making suggestions and disagree politely instead?

 

[Palando]

So i read your link, good read. However i wil not go into every detail. That would take forever. And this is not eaven on topic conserning the Lombards.

The Lombards are also mentioned in that source, where the Langobardian's myth is debunked by:

According to the ethnogenetic legend, the Longobards originated in Scandinavia (Paul the Deacon, Historia Langobardorum I,1), but archaeological-historical studies show
convincingly that they come into their own only in the region on the lower Elbe. Moreover in the Getica (95) there is a rela-tively accurate description of the location of the homeland of the Gepids on the southern coast of the Baltic. Unfortunately, the information from the Getica can be arranged on a timeline only in a very general manner. The Gepids were said to be living on an island surrounded by the shallow waters of the Vistula. This island they called in the speech of their fathers, Gepedoios’. According to the most reliable hypothesis, this island may be identified as the Elbląg Heights, with an elevation of almost 200 m. During Antiquity it was washed on the west and the north by the waters of the Vistula Lagoon
and its bay, which survives today as Lake Drużno (Bierbrauer 1994: 96–98; 1998)

However this discussion is about the year 0. 300 Years after game start.

And where's your source that the Goths lived there in 300 BC? Where's your source that Göterland got its name from THE Goths and in that time? There's none.

We are reconstructing the past from around 1 AD, but we can't know for sure whether or not this particular tribe lived there or not.

And 300 BC you would not eaven have the The Przeworsk or the The Oksywie culture present that predates the wielbark.

Przewrosk and Oskywie developed from the much earlier Pommeranian culture. None of those show any major Scandinavian influence and instead were influenced by the surrounding Jastorf and La Tène culture. So apparently there couldn't have been a major influx of peninsular Scandinavians in those times.

We have in general no hint of a massive peninsular Scandinavian incursion to that territory between 300 BC and Strabon's first mention of the Goths, so that the ancestors of the Goths lived in that region and developed from the people living there.

While much of the wielbark culture like the stone circles were already present in Scandinavia as early as 500 BC.

Those stone circles appear in the Wielbark culture in the last decades before 100 AD. Back then, Roman authors already mentioned Goths living on the continent, i.e. the Goths didn't need Scandinavian influence to get their name and their culture - they were just possibly "reinforced" from a few Scandinavians who brought their customs with them.

Then you got place names like Vestergøtaland= westgothland, Østergothaland= Eastgothland, Gotland= Gothland. Clear resemblence. Any simmilar resemblence in Poland is non existant. Gdansk, Elblag, Grudziadz etc does not have the same resemblance.

What makes you so sure the names are derived from the Goths who (among others) brought down the Western Roman empire? Couldn't the Geats be the reason for this name? Etymological evidence is also less convincing than archeological evidence.

Sorry but i find it unlikely the goths originated in Poland. Same with other germanic peoples. If so then it shuld be a bigger presence of both language and DNA. The Gothic bible of the 4th century clearly show the germanic language that eaven today as a scandinavian or probably aslo a german or dutch you understand quite much. Polish however show no presence of germanic, not eaven in place names making me think it was never a germanic homeland, more so a slavic one.

Edit: Homeland in the sense of origin of culture/language/DNA.

I'm sorry, but this school of thought reminds me of the 17th to 19th century Scandinavian one.

Have you heard of the migration period? There's a reason why it's called like that. Bohemia which was a core territory of the Celts nowadays has a minimal Celtic DNA, so I don't see how that's related.

 

[Martynios]

But you make sense right?

Palando does.

 

[Nortrix]

The Lombards are also mentioned in that source, where the Langobardian's myth is debunked by:



And where's your source that the Goths lived there in 300 BC? Where's your source that Göterland got its name from THE Goths and in that time? There's none.

This wil be my last comment on the Goths, getting exhausted by this never ending topic, i see there also is strong feelings on the matter and ithink we wil never agree. So probably best to agree to disagree.

The last answere:
As i stated earlier there are no sources of northern Europe 300 BC. The closest you get are oral history told trough generations like the one you love that much(Cassiodorus/Jordanes) ;D

We are reconstructing the past from around 1 AD, but we can't know for sure whether or not this particular tribe lived there or not.

We are not shure about anything, educated guesses.

and Oskywie developed from the much earlier Pommeranian culture. None of those show any major Scandinavian influence and instead were influenced by the surrounding Jastorf and La Tène culture. So apparently there couldn't have been a major influx of peninsular Scandinavians in those times.

And how is the Jastorf different from the nordic one, seems to me the only difference is more La Tene influence. Pommeranian culture you say. The Nordic bronze age i think we can agree on was the origin on the Germanics. The pommeranian culture i find more likely evolved out of the Lusatian culture. That i find a unlikely origin of germanics.

We have in general no hint of a massive peninsular Scandinavian incursion to that territory between 300 BC and Strabon's first mention of the Goths, so that the ancestors of the Goths lived in that region and developed from the people living there.

There is no clear way of telling that as the burrial custumes were quite simmilar between the Germanics. The exeptanse with the wielbark is that the stone circles etc only have simmilareties in Scandinavia. We don`t know if Strabon mentioned the goths. Butones. Also there was normal for Germanic nobels to sell themself as mercaneries when there was peace in own lands. Here from Tacitus:
"Many noble youths, if the land of their birth is stagnating in a long period of peace and inactivity, deliberately seek out other tribes which have some war in hand. For the Germans have no taste for peace; renown is more easily won among perils, and a large body of retainers cannot be kept together except by means of violence and war. "

Those stone circles appear in the Wielbark culture in the last decades before 100 AD. Back then, Roman authors already mentioned Goths living on the continent, i.e. the Goths didn't need Scandinavian influence to get their name and their culture - they were just possibly "reinforced" from a few Scandinavians who brought their customs with them.

The stone cricles does not need to be built as soon as the goths arrive, see that as no evidence. Also you have to live a time in an area before numerus graves. Not like the Goths died in huge numbers as soon as they reach land. Not to my logic. A Generation is at least 20 years.

What makes you so sure the names are derived from the Goths who (among others) brought down the Western Roman empire? Couldn't the Geats be the reason for this name? Etymological evidence is also less convincing than archeological evidence.

I don`t think the Geats, Gøtar, Gotlanders etc in Sweden have their name from the Goths that brought down the Roman Empire. Why would i think that. I simply think the Goths brought their name with them on their migrations when they left. Absorbing many people and cultures on they way but keeping their name,culture, language etc.

 

[Palando]

This wil be my last comment on the Goths, getting exhausted by this never ending topic, i see there also is strong feelings on the matter and ithink we wil never agree. So probably best to agree to disagree.

It's more like that you have strong feelings about that when you write:

Then you got place names like Vestergøtaland= westgothland, Østergothaland= Eastgothland, Gotland= Gothland. Clear resemblence. Any simmilar resemblence in Poland is non existant. Gdansk, Elblag, Grudziadz etc does not have the same resemblance. Sorry but i find it unlikely the goths originated in Poland. Same with other germanic peoples. If so then it shuld be a bigger presence of both language and DNA. The Gothic bible of the 4th century clearly show the germanic language that eaven today as a scandinavian or probably aslo a german or dutch you understand quite much. Polish however show no presence of germanic, not eaven in place names making me think it was never a germanic homeland, more so a slavic one..

What's your problem with Germanic tribes in Poland?

The last answere:
As i stated earlier there are no sources of northern Europe 300 BC. The closest you get are oral history told trough generations like the one you love that much(Cassiodorus/Jordanes) ;D

We have Roman authors from the 1st century AD; that's more than 400 years before Jordanes or Cassiodorus. There's no reason for the Romans lying about geography, they could only do some mistakes because of not knowing enough. But there are some for the Goths, as Jordanes and Cassiodorus wanted to glorify the Goths, so they extended the Goths' origin back to 1000 BC to make it comparable with the Romans' origin.

And how is the Jastorf different from the nordic one, seems to me the only difference is more La Tene influence. Pommeranian culture you say. The Nordic bronze age i think we can agree on was the origin on the Germanics. The pommeranian culture i find more likely evolved out of the Lusatian culture. That i find a unlikely origin of germanics.

The Nordic Bronze Age was centuries before. You don't want to tell me that the Germans sat there in Scandinavia and did nothing, do you? Jastorf's origin is also more than 200 years before the game's start.

There is no clear way of telling that as the burrial custumes were quite simmilar between the Germanics. The exeptanse with the wielbark is that the stone circles etc only have simmilareties in Scandinavia. We don`t know if Strabon mentioned the goths. Butones. Also there was normal for Germanic nobels to sell themself as mercaneries when there was peace in own lands. Here from Tacitus:
"Many noble youths, if the land of their birth is stagnating in a long period of peace and inactivity, deliberately seek out other tribes which have some war in hand. For the Germans have no taste for peace; renown is more easily won among perils, and a large body of retainers cannot be kept together except by means of violence and war. "

It's not about a few years, but about more than half a century between the first mention of Goths on the continent and the appearance of Scandinavian burial customs. Equating the Butones with the Guthones is what most scientist can agree with nowadays. Tacitus's Annales mention is also around half a century before the appearance of Scandinavian burial customs.

The stone cricles does not need to be built as soon as the goths arrive, see that as no evidence. Also you have to live a time in an area before numerus graves. Not like the Goths died in huge numbers as soon as they reach land. Not to my logic. A Generation is at least 20 years.

See above. More than half a century is far more than that. Or do you want to tell me that they had found the fountain of youth?


All in all, your only sources are Jordanes's Getica and the firm belief that Germans can't have lived in Poland at around 300 BC. Although you deny having an agenda; you keep pushing for more illustrous tribes coming from Scandinavia based on legends and myths. Imperator isn't a mythology game, so that's why I want to see that kept out of the game.

 

[Prometheus_1]

Some says it derives from the use of the Longobards to use Long barbed spears , from which the Long berd ... Or from long armors , like Long Bardic.

 

[Nicolaes]

I don't think a founding myth about a tribe worshipping Satan and his lieutenants, a story which was already considering pretty ridiculous by its author (a holy man of the cloth), should be considered as a proper historical document ;-)

Besides that aren't the archaeological and genetical worlds already of the opinion that the Norse migration period waseither over-exaggerated or didn't even happen? Atleast I can't recall a lot of population movements from lessons about Dutch prehistory...

 

[A_Dane]

The stone cricles does not need to be built as soon as the goths arrive, see that as no evidence. Also you have to live a time in an area before numerus graves. Not like the Goths died in huge numbers as soon as they reach land. Not to my logic. A Generation is at least 20 years.

I just want to point out the following:
That really depends on alot of factors: How many would theoretically have come? Was there alot of warfare, which one could argue was to be expected in this scenario (people were already living there, they usually don't give up land peacefully etc.), were there elderly with them etc.

Since we got no tangible prove of anything, we can only speculate - but saying that "A generation is at least 20 years" dosn't really prove anything, when we don't know anything else about the migration.

Personally I really don't care too much either way. I do however seriously doubt that all of the tribes attributed to Scandinavia in this time period actually came from there...