Lombards

[Nortrix]

Suggesting a minor change from Lombards to Winnili.

Latest map they are placed in central Germany:

The Origo Gentis Langobardorum ("Origin of the tribe of the Lombards").
The text mentions an island Scandanan(Scandinavia), the home of the Winnili. Their ruler was a woman called Gambara, with her sons Ybor and Agio. The leaders of the Vandals, Ambri and Assi, asked them to pay them tribute, but they refused, saying they would fight them. Ambri and Assi then went to Godan, and asked him for victory over the Winnili. Godan replied that he would give the victory to whomever he saw first at sunrise. At the same time, Gambara and her sons asked Frea, Godan's wife, for victory. Frea advised that the women of the Winnili should tie their hair in front of their faces like beards and join their men for battle. At sunrise, Frea turned her husband's bed so that he was facing east, and woke him. Godan saw the women of the Winnili, their hair tied in front of their faces, and asked "Who are these longbeards?", and Frea replied, since you named them, give them victory, and he did. From this day, the Winnili were called Langobardi, "longbeards".

Could be interesting to be that litle underdog tribe to fight youre way up the ranks so to speak.



So far i feel scandinavia lacks a tiny underdog as you see other places. Winnili could be perfect for that. Not a mayor issue, just a suggestion.

 

[Martynios]

Maybe you should take a look at some real sources

 

[Nortrix]

Maybe you should take a look at some real sources

Lets be real here, there exist no real sources of northern europe 300 BC. I suggest we use what we have or else we got nothing.

Is the founding myth of the Lombards written down by the Lombards 700AD. Legends and myths tend to have some connection to truth. Reading the sagas for example you learn to differ between the fantastical and the real.

 

[Martynios]

Lets be real here, there exist no real sources of northern europe 300 BC. I suggest we use what we have or else we got nothing.

There are archeological sources, and written sources from the 1st century AD. Both are useable for the purposes of a game.

Is the founding myth of the Lombards written down by the Lombards 700AD. Legends and myths tend to have some connection to truth. Reading the sagas for example you learn to differ between the fantastical and the real.

So do you also think the Romans originally came from Anatolia then?

 

[Zerodv]

There are archeological sources, and written sources from the 1st century AD. Both are useable for the purposes of a game.
So do you also think the Romans originally came from Anatolia then?

The Franks too! We should add Francia in Western Anatolia.

 

[Palando]

Lets be real here, there exist no real sources of northern europe 300 BC. I suggest we use what we have or else we got nothing.

Is the founding myth of the Lombards written down by the Lombards 700AD. Legends and myths tend to have some connection to truth. Reading the sagas for example you learn to differ between the fantastical and the real.

But the Vandals/Lugians very likely lived on the continent back in 300BC (or more like their predecessors); archeological excavations make a Scandinavian origin extremely unlikely.

It's also an origo gentis, so how do you know what the core truth actually is? Winnili is far too similar to the Vandals' name, too. Where would you place them even?

 

[Nortrix]

There are archeological sources, and written sources from the 1st century AD. Both are useable for the purposes of a game.

Arceological sources support in many cases like the gothic migration but in the case of the Lombards the only source we have on their origin is theyre oral history that they wrote down 700 AD. sources seen and written 1st century AD i think is no better source. Remember this are the Lombards telling their own story. Not some observer 400 years after game start.

 

[Nortrix]

So do you also think the Romans originally came from Anatolia then?

I know nothing about that so it would be wrong to me to comment on it, but would not be that far from truth if you go waay back. Indo european migration. DNA traces show the R1B had a more southern migration into europe from the east than the R1A.

Edit: Adding some maps

 

[Palando]

Arceological sources support in many cases like the gothic migration but in the case of the Lombards the only source we have on their origin is theyre oral history that they wrote down 700 AD. sources seen and written 1st century AD i think is no better source. Remember this are the Lombards telling their own story. Not some observer 400 years after game start.

No there isn't archeological evidence for the Goths coming from Scandinavia, as their first mention precedes the appearance of Scandinavian inspired burial rites by several decades.

 

[Nortrix]

No there isn't archeological evidence for the Goths coming from Scandinavia, as their first mention precedes the appearance of Scandinavian inspired burial rites by several decades.

There is no archelogical evidence for anything when it comes to ancient north europe. Just educated guesses. We discussed this before and i alredy pointed it out:

""Wielbark culture:
A characteristic of this culture, which it had in common with southern Scandinavia, was the raising of stone covered mounds, stone circles, solitary stelea and variations of cobble cladding."

"
The stone circles of the Iron Age (c. 500 BC – c. 400 AD) were a characteristic burial custom of southern Scandinavia, especially on Gotland and in Götaland during the Pre-Roman Iron Age and the Roman Iron Age. In Sweden, they are called Domarringar (judge circles), Domkretsar (judge circles) or Domarsäten (judge seats). They should not be confused with the Stone circles of the Bronze Age and Britain."

Is it a coincidence this scandinavian circles does not appear in poland before the wielbark culture? And at the same time other scandinavian custums like raising of stone covered mounds, solitary stelea and variations of cobble cladding.

Also thise stone circles started in scandinavia as erly as 500 BC and continued on untill the Viking age. While in Poland they existed for the short time during the Goths were belived to be there.

A vid showing some of the circles:

By Tadeusz Makiewicz, polish dude

https://web.archive.org/web/20120414235502/http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title5.htm

"Wielbark communities comprised mostly members of tribes already settled in this area with the addition of Scandinavian migrants, who maybe arrived here in small groups. At present, it is thought that those areas which were inhabited directly by Gothic peoples are characterised by the presence of extensive barrow cemeteries of the Odry-Węsiory-Grzybnica type, at which stone circles consisting of large boulders were raised. These were sites of a ritual character where tribal meetings (known as things) took place. Sites of this type are found in the Kashubian and Krajeński Lakelands, extending to the Koszalin region in the Central Lakelands, hence, to the west of the Vistula. These burial grounds began to appear across this area during the latter part of the first century ad, at the same time that the Kowalewko cemetery was founded.
This area is also associated with the Wielbark Culture, whose communities settled in Greater Poland during the same period and exhibit a number of close links with the aforementioned lakelands. We do not, however, have any evidence of stone circles or cobble-clad graves from Greater Poland, barrow burials being a rarity - only three having been recorded in the peripheral zone of this region. The Wielbark Culture appears to have been composed of Scandinavian Goths and Gepidae as well as of earlier local communities - the Venedi and Rugii. "

To me this coincidences are just to many to belive Poland was the origins of the goths. Thats no nationalism(Not eaven a swede). Do you have anything that supports poland beeing the origin?"

Anyways this is about the Lombards, don`t want this discussion to get to heavy.

 

[Nortrix]

As i pointed out at the start, this was and is no mayor issue for me. I see i voke some kind of hornet nest here.

If Winnili or not i don`t care that much. But would still like an underdog in Scandinavia. A more mixed bigger and smaller tribes so you can play an underdog if you so wish.

 

[Palando]

The Langobards first appeared in the territory of the Jastorf culture which doesn't show any massive immigration of Scandinavians, so how do you explain that?

There is no archelogical evidence for anything when it comes to ancient north europe. Just educated guesses. We discussed this before and i alredy pointed it out:

""Wielbark culture:
A characteristic of this culture, which it had in common with southern Scandinavia, was the raising of stone covered mounds, stone circles, solitary stelea and variations of cobble cladding."

"
The stone circles of the Iron Age (c. 500 BC – c. 400 AD) were a characteristic burial custom of southern Scandinavia, especially on Gotland and in Götaland during the Pre-Roman Iron Age and the Roman Iron Age. In Sweden, they are called Domarringar (judge circles), Domkretsar (judge circles) or Domarsäten (judge seats). They should not be confused with the Stone circles of the Bronze Age and Britain."

Is it a coincidence this scandinavian circles does not appear in poland before the wielbark culture? And at the same time other scandinavian custums like raising of stone covered mounds, solitary stelea and variations of cobble cladding.

Also thise stone circles started in scandinavia as erly as 500 BC and continued on untill the Viking age. While in Poland they existed for the short time during the Goths were belived to be there.

A vid showing some of the circles:

By Tadeusz Makiewicz, polish dude

https://web.archive.org/web/20120414235502/http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title5.htm

"Wielbark communities comprised mostly members of tribes already settled in this area with the addition of Scandinavian migrants, who maybe arrived here in small groups. At present, it is thought that those areas which were inhabited directly by Gothic peoples are characterised by the presence of extensive barrow cemeteries of the Odry-Węsiory-Grzybnica type, at which stone circles consisting of large boulders were raised. These were sites of a ritual character where tribal meetings (known as things) took place. Sites of this type are found in the Kashubian and Krajeński Lakelands, extending to the Koszalin region in the Central Lakelands, hence, to the west of the Vistula. These burial grounds began to appear across this area during the latter part of the first century ad, at the same time that the Kowalewko cemetery was founded.
This area is also associated with the Wielbark Culture, whose communities settled in Greater Poland during the same period and exhibit a number of close links with the aforementioned lakelands. We do not, however, have any evidence of stone circles or cobble-clad graves from Greater Poland, barrow burials being a rarity - only three having been recorded in the peripheral zone of this region. The Wielbark Culture appears to have been composed of Scandinavian Goths and Gepidae as well as of earlier local communities - the Venedi and Rugii. "

To me this coincidences are just to many to belive Poland was the origins of the goths. Thats no nationalism(Not eaven a swede). Do you have anything that supports poland beeing the origin?"

Anyways this is about the Lombards, don`t want this discussion to get to heavy.

And back then I told you the following, and you've since then never replied or posted another source that deals with the development of the Wielbark culture. You only disagreed, but never told me why.

The following is based on the German book "Geschichte der Westgoten" by Gerd Kampers, 2009, which I found very helpful, as it focuses on the evolution of the Wielbark culture.

• The first mention of the Goths was by Strabon around 5 AD, so they had to be there from the very beginning of the Wielbark culture. Tacitus mentioned them together with the Rugii and the Lemovii. They are also mentioned by Plinius.
  
• During the first phase of the Wielbark culture (1 AD - 80 AD), the same burial sites are used with the same burial customs. Men are no longer buried with their weapons, though.
  
• Only after 80 AD, barrows with constructions out of stone and stone circles appear in the same regions where the older burial sites were. This lead to two different types of burial customs co-existing.

He concludes with the Goths already being there before a potential Scandinavian influx could have happened, and that, even after the new customs are introduced, the Wielbark culture differs from both the Przworsk and Scandinavian in the point that there were no weapons in tombs.

 

[Thure]

The Franks wrote around 700 AD that they are decedents of Aeneas and were originally from Greek... Just because the wrote it in their Sagas doesn't make it true.

 

[Nortrix]

The Franks wrote around 700 AD that they are decedents of Aeneas and were originally from Greek... Just because the wrote it in their Sagas doesn't make it true.

Have not read the Frankish saga, and of course that sounds like an fantasy. However to claim decent from Germanic core lands for the Lombards make a whole lot more sense than Greece. Out of curiosity do you by chance have a link to those Sagas? Would be interesting to read.

 

[Nortrix]

The Langobards first appeared in the territory of the Jastorf culture which doesn't show any massive immigration of Scandinavians, so how do you explain that?

First appeared in what way? Mentioned by roman you mean? They were mentioned by Strabo as nomads on migration if i remember correctly. Living off their animals moving around with wagons and tents.

And back then I told you the following, and you've since then never replied or posted another source that deals with the development of the Wielbark culture. You only disagreed, but never told me why.

Actualy you told me this:
"I posted my sources in the thread about Lugii, Bastarnae, Vandals and Goths, and Isee that you've already read it. You should maybe explain why or whether you have a better chronology of the Wielbark culture."

and i answered "Do i have to find youre post from another thread..." and our discussion ended there.

To answere now then:

You say Strabon first mentioned the goths 5 AD, can you quote what he said or give me a link becaus i never found anything. Only found this:

"44 those towards the north extend along the ocean;45 and beginning at the outlets of the Rhenus, they are known as far as the Albis; and of these the best known are the Sugambri and the Cimbri; but those parts of the country beyond the Albis that are near the ocean are wholly unknown to us. For of the men of earlier times I know of no one who has made this voyage along the coast to the eastern parts that extend as far as the mouth46 of the Caspian Sea; and the Romans have not yet advanced into the parts that are beyond the Albis; and likewise no one has made the journey by land either. However, it is clear from the "climata" and the parallel distances that if one travels longitudinally towards the east, one encounters the regions that are about 47 or certain other of the wagon-dwellers48 — it is not easy to say; nor yet whether they extend as far as the ocean along its entire length, or whether any part is uninhabitable by reason of the cold or other cause, or whether even a different race of people, succeeding the Germans, is situated between the sea and the eastern Germans. And this same ignorance prevails also in regard to the rest of the peoples that come next in order on the north; for I know neither the Bastarnae,49 nor the Sauromatae, nor, in a word, any of the peoples who dwell above the Pontus, nor how far distant they are from the Atlantic Sea,50 nor whether their countries border upon it."

What i make out of this is that he littarly tells us he know close to nothing...?

Tacitus mention the Goths around 100AD at the time the wieldbark culture appear in Poland, so that makes sense.

 

[Palando]

First appeared in what way? Mentioned by roman you mean? They were mentioned by Strabo as nomads on migration if i remember correctly. Living off their animals moving around with wagons and tents.




Actualy you told me this:
"I posted my sources in the thread about Lugii, Bastarnae, Vandals and Goths, and Isee that you've already read it. You should maybe explain why or whether you have a better chronology of the Wielbark culture."

and i answered "Do i have to find youre post from another thread..." and our discussion ended there.

To answere now then:

You say Strabon first mentioned the goths 5 AD, can you quote what he said or give me a link becaus i never found anything. Only found this:

"44 those towards the north extend along the ocean;45 and beginning at the outlets of the Rhenus, they are known as far as the Albis; and of these the best known are the Sugambri and the Cimbri; but those parts of the country beyond the Albis that are near the ocean are wholly unknown to us. For of the men of earlier times I know of no one who has made this voyage along the coast to the eastern parts that extend as far as the mouth46 of the Caspian Sea; and the Romans have not yet advanced into the parts that are beyond the Albis; and likewise no one has made the journey by land either. However, it is clear from the "climata" and the parallel distances that if one travels longitudinally towards the east, one encounters the regions that are about 47 or certain other of the wagon-dwellers48 — it is not easy to say; nor yet whether they extend as far as the ocean along its entire length, or whether any part is uninhabitable by reason of the cold or other cause, or whether even a different race of people, succeeding the Germans, is situated between the sea and the eastern Germans. And this same ignorance prevails also in regard to the rest of the peoples that come next in order on the north; for I know neither the Bastarnae,49 nor the Sauromatae, nor, in a word, any of the peoples who dwell above the Pontus, nor how far distant they are from the Atlantic Sea,50 nor whether their countries border upon it."

What i make out of this is that he littarly tells us he know close to nothing...?

Tacitus mention the Goths around 100AD at the time the wieldbark culture appear in Poland, so that makes sense.

In his Geographika (VII, 1, 17), Strabon mentions the Butones which is often interpreted as Gutones. The English translation of that part is:

[...]domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favour of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini, and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves.

Plinius the Elder also mentions the Gutones, and his information is from 59 AD or earlier.

Toto autem mari ad Scaldim usque fluvium Germaniae accolunt gentes, haud explicabili mesnura: tam inmodica prodentium discordia est. Graeci et quidam nostri |XXV| oram Germaniae tradiderunt, Agrippa cum Raetia et Norico longitudinem DCXXXVI, latitudinem CCXLVIII, si coniectare permittitur, haut multum ora deerit Graecorum opinioni et longitudini ab Agrippa proditae. Germanorum genera quinque: Vandili, quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones. alterum genus Inguaeones, quorum pars Cimbri, Teutoni ac Chaucorum gentes....

Both mentions are before the Wielbark culture showed any Scandinavian influence. If you don't believe me, read this source from 2016: http://www.academia.edu/36853596/Th...ges._500BC_500AD_Vol._4_Warszawa_2016_217_255

The important part:

The mainland roots of Wielbark culture no longer raise any doubt today, especially as the funeral rite and the fur-nishing of graves deposited in sites with stone circles and burial mounds do not diverge from the local burial customs known from cemeteries with flat graves. At the same time, the relatively sudden appearance of complex stone structures in the Wielbark culture environment as an already fully formed and, at the same time, diverse phenomenon that may actually confirm the migration of small human groups from Scandinavia which, however, probably quite soon adopted the spiritual and material culture of the local people (Bierbrauer 1994: 85–87, fig. 14). But were these Goths, who brought the name of the tribe and its tradition from the Scandinavian Peninsula?

Apparently not, since the references to the Goths on the southern coast of the Baltic found in the written sources are almost half a century earlier (second decade of the 1st c.) than the emergence of the cemeteries with burial mounds and stone circles in Pomerania. Although the information recorded by Cassiodorus/Jordanes about the northern European origin of the whole Gothic nation seems to be a literary topos, perhaps it does concern a smaller group of people which sometime later entered into a tribal alliance with the Goths and their oral tradition of this people as well. At the present level of research this problem cannot be resolved conclusively. Advances in archaeological research, including progress in analysis of ancient DNA and the study of strontium isotope content, do give hope that the question of the possible pres-ence of ‘Scandinavians’, and at the same time, the role they might have played within Wielbark culture societies, may be understood better in the years to come.

Tacitus mention the Goths around 100AD at the time the wieldbark culture appear in Poland, so that makes sense.

Tacitus mention predates 100 AD, as he had to get the information before publishing it. In his Annals (II, 62) he mentions a Gothic nobleman for the year 19 AD:

While Germanicus was spending the summer in visits to several provinces, Drusus gained no little glory by sowing discord among the Germans and urging them to complete the destruction of the now broken power of Maroboduus. Among the Gotones was a youth of noble birth, Catualda by name, who had formerly been driven into exile by the might of Maroboduus, and who now, when the king's fortunes were declining, ventured on revenge. He entered the territory of the Marcomanni with a strong force, and, having corruptly won over the nobles to join him, burst into the palace and into an adjacent fortress. There he found the long-accumulated plunder of the Suevi and camp followers and traders from our provinces who had been attracted to an enemy's land, each from their various homes, first by the freedom of commerce, next by the desire of amassing wealth, finally by forgetfulness of their fatherland.

 

[Nortrix]

In his Geographika (VII, 1, 17), Strabon mentions the Butones which is often interpreted as Gutones. The English translation of that part is:


Plinius the Elder also mentions the Gutones, and his information is from 59 AD or earlier.



Both mentions are before the Wielbark culture showed any Scandinavian influence. If you don't believe me, read this source from 2016: http://www.academia.edu/36853596/Th...ges._500BC_500AD_Vol._4_Warszawa_2016_217_255

The important part:


Tacitus mention predates 100 AD, as he had to get the information before publishing it. In his Annals (II, 62) he mentions a Gothic nobleman for the year 19 AD:

So Strabon mentioned the Butones that he says nothing about, who they are, were they live etc. But you take that as evidence for goths in Poland? Or i missunderstand you?
Strabon writes: "but those parts of the country beyond the Albis that are near the ocean are wholly unknown to us."

I fail to see any value in his knowledge when he littarly says "unknown to us".

Plinius the Elder and his information from 59 AD is also inside the first century. First century is 100 years. Year 0 to 100AD. The wieldbark culture do not have an exact date. Just 1 century to 5th century.
You quote Plinius in Latin. Any link to a translation. I don`t understand Latin.

Here from the link you sent:

"Despite major change in the burial ritual and material culture around AD 1, something which led archaeologists to
replace the term ‘Oksywie culture’ by ‘Wielbark culture’"

They say 1 AD not 100 AD, but most sources i seen they say 1 century. Thus making a safer statement as it is impossible to date exact. So i think you are wrong to say the goths are mentioned before the wieldbark culture. Actualy seem to fit quite nicely.

 

[Palando]

So Strabon mentioned the Butones that he says nothing about, who they are, were they live etc. But you take that as evidence for goths in Poland? Or i missunderstand you?
Strabon writes: "but those parts of the country beyond the Albis that are near the ocean are wholly unknown to us."

I fail to see any value in his knowledge when he littarly says "unknown to us".

Plinius the Elder and his information from 59 AD is also inside the first century. First century is 100 years. Year 0 to 100AD. The wieldbark culture do not have an exact date. Just 1 century to 5th century.
You quote Plinius in Latin. Any link to a translation. I don`t understand Latin.

Here from the link you sent:

"Despite major change in the burial ritual and material culture around AD 1, something which led archaeologists to
replace the term ‘Oksywie culture’ by ‘Wielbark culture’"

They say 1 AD not 100 AD, but most sources i seen they say 1 century. Thus making a safer statement as it is impossible to date exact. So i think you are wrong to say the goths are mentioned before the wieldbark culture. Actualy seem to fit quite nicely.

I advise you to fully read the text I sent you, before jumping to any conclusions based on your current stance.

Strabon mentions the Goths as part of Maroboduus's league, so that the Goths had to live in the Marcomanni's vicinity. It's absolutely unlikely that Maroboduus would've been able to exert any form of power over the Goths had they lived on the Scandinavian peninsula, when his seat was somewhere in Bohemia. Tacitus's Annales support this notion.

Plinius mentions the Goths (and the Varinians, Charinians, Burgundians) as one part of the Vandals.


All those mentions are before there is any archeological evidence of Scandinavian inspired burial rites. That's why you should probably read the text I linked you. Early Wielbark culture had no Scandinavian inspired burial rites, as they appear only later in the last decades of the first century AD; long after the Goths are mentioned by the Romans.

 

[Nortrix]

I advise you to fully read the text I sent you, before jumping to any conclusions based on your current stance.

Strabon mentions the Goths as part of Maroboduus's league, so that the Goths had to live in the Marcomanni's vicinity. It's absolutely unlikely that Maroboduus would've been able to exert any form of power over the Goths had they lived on the Scandinavian peninsula, when his seat was somewhere in Bohemia. Tacitus's Annales support this notion.

Plinius mentions the Goths (and the Varinians, Charinians, Burgundians) as one part of the Vandals.


All those mentions are before there is any archeological evidence of Scandinavian inspired burial rites. That's why you should probably read the text I linked you. Early Wielbark culture had no Scandinavian inspired burial rites, as they appear only later in the last decades of the first century AD; long after the Goths are mentioned by the Romans.

Strabon mention the Butones, we don`t actualy know if it is the Goths. I would not jump to any conclusions. Eaven so it is inside the time frame of the wieldbark culture (1 century) So i again fail to see this is a mention before the wieldbark?

That the goths joined the Vandals would be logical at this early time. Tribal coalitions was an common thing. Supposedly the Rugi and the Vandals was in the Polish region when the goths appeared. A conflict before agreement would be logical.

To read that link of yours i ned time, which i don`t have right now. However i wil try to find time later.

 

[Palando]

Strabon mention the Butones, we don`t actualy know if it is the Goths. I would not jump to any conclusions. Eaven so it is inside the time frame of the wieldbark culture (1 century) So i again fail to see this is a mention before the wieldbark?

That the goths joined the Vandals would be logical at this early time. Tribal coalitions was an common thing. Supposedly the Rugi and the Vandals was in the Polish region when the goths appeared. A conflict before agreement would be logical.

To read that link of yours i ned time, which i don`t have right now. However i wil try to find time later.

It has nothing to do with Wielbark or no Wielbark, but more with signs of Scandinavian influence in the Wielbark culture. As I've pointed out numerous times, this Scandinavian influence first appears AFTER the first mentions by Roman authors, so there's not a single archeological evidence indicating that the Goths came from Scandinavia. In fact, it is possible to compare the settlements and burial sites of the earlier Oskywie culture, and one finds that there's a continuity between Oskywie and Wielbark:

Despite major change in the burial ritual and material culture around AD 1, something which led archaeologists to
replace the term ‘Oksywie culture’ by ‘Wielbark culture’, there is convincing evidence from the analysis of settlement structures for a continuity of settlement by the same population. The territory inhabited by Wielbark societies early into the 1st c. AD is the same as that occupied earlier by Oksywie culture.
Neither is there any apparent disruption in the development of individual microregions and larger settlement concentrations. Continuity is manifested not only by the uninterrupted use of
cemeteries (e.g., Pruszcz Gdański, site 7 and 10; Podwiesk, site 2; Nowy Targ on the lower Vistula River; and Wygoda and Warszkowo in central Pomerania), but most notably by settlements, too (e.g., Jastarnia on Hel Peninsula and Rogowo on the Parsęta river) (Przewoźna 1971: 193–197; Bierbrauer 1994: 63, 76–77, Fig. 6).

Just blindly believing Jordanes's bloody Getica is of no help.