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in MKJ I once in a while see them annex Mamelukes and Hungary!
this is always very reassuring
this is always very reassuring
The problem as I see it is that the Mameluks are too strong. I always see the Ottomans get Anatolia and the Balkans (and once they annexed the Horde, thus having an unbroken string of provinces from Western Siberia to Bosnia), but I have never seen the Ottomans crush the Mamelukes. Considering that the Mamelukes collapsed at the first push of the Ottomans in 1516, this is odd, and I think it has to with the Mamelukes.
I think the Mamelukes should be culture-less, as there was no connection whatsoever between the ruling class the the Egyptian-Arab population. An event may also be justified that would allow the Ottomans to annex the Mamelukes if they take Cairo, with the cost of reducing the tax values of the Egyptian provinces and perhaps reducing centralization.
Historically, the Ottomans allowed the Mameluke nobility to continue plundering Egypt under nominal Ottoman suzereignity, with the result that these potentially rich provinces contributed remarkably little to the Sultan in Constantinople. There would be a single annual tribute caravan to C-town, and that was about it. The only useful military task performed by Egyptian-raised troops was the guarding of the pilgrimage caravans en route to Mecca, until Muhammed Ali at least (and I don't mean the boxer...).
I think the Mamelukes should be culture-less, as there was no connection whatsoever between the ruling class the the Egyptian-Arab population. An event may also be justified that would allow the Ottomans to annex the Mamelukes if they take Cairo, with the cost of reducing the tax values of the Egyptian provinces and perhaps reducing centralization.
Historically, the Ottomans allowed the Mameluke nobility to continue plundering Egypt under nominal Ottoman suzereignity, with the result that these potentially rich provinces contributed remarkably little to the Sultan in Constantinople. There would be a single annual tribute caravan to C-town, and that was about it. The only useful military task performed by Egyptian-raised troops was the guarding of the pilgrimage caravans en route to Mecca, until Muhammed Ali at least (and I don't mean the boxer...).
With 1.05 and EEP, I've seen them often times stretch to Morrocco and conquer most of Persia and All of the Balkans as long as they have a good start.
I think that if they are nudged into more wars they will do better.
CB shields and war and combat settings only do so much. If events were made to get them to follow more of the historic wars, but given an out for the human player then I think that OE would do much better.
I totally agree that the Ottomans are weak and never turn out right as the AI, but, in their defense, what EVER turns out right when in the hands of the AI.
I have never , ever, seen it run a country right. If, in a multiplayer game, a human player is MIA and the AI has to take over for a period, im not surprised if half its lands revolt away. All i does is dow and dow , and after every dow comes an offer for white peace. And when you dow it, you will be sieging every one of its provinces and they will have the balls to ask you to PAY THEM for peace. anything this so unable to hold large nations together, or even able to form large nations, should surprise nobody when it never turns out to be "how it really was."
really no amount of editing CB shields or changing tax values will help. It is really just one thing that prevents the AI from scaring anyone, its , the AI, is the worst tatical general to every step foot on this planet. I think a six year old could out manuver it, A SIX YEAR OLD GIRL!!!!! It has no concept of proper troop placement, proper recruiting procedures, where to recruit, who to recruit, it has no idea to build up your armies before declaring war, it has no concept of where to attack, who to attack, when to attack, it lacks the ability to do a proper siege, most of the time it sieges a castle to a -9 factor then sends troops off to fight somewhere else, wasting all its progress, it has no clue where to put navies, when to move navies, it does not know to build large forts in valuable provinces, it does not consider the amount of gold in treasurey when making peace, not to mention war exhuastion, allies involvement. And thats just naming a few things wrong.
heres an example about how bad the ai really is
3 player game
nations are
spain, france, and portugal
france and portugal have allied against spain
spain dow's portugal, sieging and taking all its lands, while the french overpower spain in the east and start their march into spain.
spain is screwed, portugal knows it can not defeat france, therefore refuses to give up even though all three of its european provinces are taken by spain. at best spain can hope for white peace.
now , a two player 2 game
nations are
spain and france
france has allied itselft with ai portugal, hoping to stop spain from diplo-annexing it
spain dow's portugal once again, sieging and taking all its lands
spain once again is defeated by france in the east and france marches into spain to siege its provs, big worry right? WRONG!
spain has a very high war score on portugal, and depending on how many colonies portugal has and how many of those spain caputred, spain can hope for one or two european province from portugal, and maybe some colonies.
all of france's effort is wasted, and finds itself at peace with spain for five years, plenty of time for spain to use all its money to build up incase france decides that after 5 years it wants revenge.
Now, after reading that, and im sure you have experienced it yourself a few times, can we ever expect anything more out of the AI?????
I have never , ever, seen it run a country right. If, in a multiplayer game, a human player is MIA and the AI has to take over for a period, im not surprised if half its lands revolt away. All i does is dow and dow , and after every dow comes an offer for white peace. And when you dow it, you will be sieging every one of its provinces and they will have the balls to ask you to PAY THEM for peace. anything this so unable to hold large nations together, or even able to form large nations, should surprise nobody when it never turns out to be "how it really was."
really no amount of editing CB shields or changing tax values will help. It is really just one thing that prevents the AI from scaring anyone, its , the AI, is the worst tatical general to every step foot on this planet. I think a six year old could out manuver it, A SIX YEAR OLD GIRL!!!!! It has no concept of proper troop placement, proper recruiting procedures, where to recruit, who to recruit, it has no idea to build up your armies before declaring war, it has no concept of where to attack, who to attack, when to attack, it lacks the ability to do a proper siege, most of the time it sieges a castle to a -9 factor then sends troops off to fight somewhere else, wasting all its progress, it has no clue where to put navies, when to move navies, it does not know to build large forts in valuable provinces, it does not consider the amount of gold in treasurey when making peace, not to mention war exhuastion, allies involvement. And thats just naming a few things wrong.
heres an example about how bad the ai really is
3 player game
nations are
spain, france, and portugal
france and portugal have allied against spain
spain dow's portugal, sieging and taking all its lands, while the french overpower spain in the east and start their march into spain.
spain is screwed, portugal knows it can not defeat france, therefore refuses to give up even though all three of its european provinces are taken by spain. at best spain can hope for white peace.
now , a two player 2 game
nations are
spain and france
france has allied itselft with ai portugal, hoping to stop spain from diplo-annexing it
spain dow's portugal once again, sieging and taking all its lands
spain once again is defeated by france in the east and france marches into spain to siege its provs, big worry right? WRONG!
spain has a very high war score on portugal, and depending on how many colonies portugal has and how many of those spain caputred, spain can hope for one or two european province from portugal, and maybe some colonies.
all of france's effort is wasted, and finds itself at peace with spain for five years, plenty of time for spain to use all its money to build up incase france decides that after 5 years it wants revenge.
Now, after reading that, and im sure you have experienced it yourself a few times, can we ever expect anything more out of the AI?????
Idea for mod-makers and Mamelukes
Start them with some culture they'd probably not have, or a fake culture (I'm not sure if you can give someone a culture not in the game, make their culture "mameluke" or something)
allow them to change to arabic culture if they capture a few things, or survive till x period...
Start them with some culture they'd probably not have, or a fake culture (I'm not sure if you can give someone a culture not in the game, make their culture "mameluke" or something)
allow them to change to arabic culture if they capture a few things, or survive till x period...
Good ideas. I did change the Mameluk culture previously. I changed it to Berber, as since, the culture in Mameluk Egypt was more Berber or more precisely, Beudoin. So I made it Berber, and they managed to keep their empire, with little expansions, and making it "easier" for the Ottomans to take them over.
not untill i read it on your post, then i looked it up, and i am kinda missing your point.
I mean, wouldnt that be great? the AI thinking just like one of us, or to put it in simpler terms, teh AI thinking how can I win, what can I do to put me ahead 10, 20 years down the road. Instead, It simply says "o brandenburg is hated throughout the world because it has annex every catholic nation next to it. I (representing the AI here, not myself) am the Ottoman Empire, leader of the muslim faith, what do I care about catholics getting annexed in Northern germany? nothing, but brandenburg has a lot of bad boy points, so I will declare war on them."
kinda silly if you think about it like that.
we are playing a game of history, but it only turns out historical when we let it. Now, I have nothing wrong with conquering half the world, hell , who knows, it could of happened. Thats not what really bothers me. What bothers me is the plain and simple stupidity of the AI. I mean any king that is not smart enough to beg for peace when its army has been whiped out and every major city it controls is surrounded by the enemy deserves to have his head chopped off.
maybe the system of a war score percentage needs to be changed, if its not working, throw it out and start over.
why not just set up a set of conditions? i know it doesnt sound great, but its the best i personally could come up with
something along the lines of
if the enemy outnumbers our troops 5:1 , this will be offered
if the enemy is outnumbered in troops 5:1, but outnumbers us in max manpower 3:1, this will be offered
if our army is elimated and every province is sieged/captured, this will be offered
i would like to list more and give more descriptions of my meanings, but i got to go
I mean, wouldnt that be great? the AI thinking just like one of us, or to put it in simpler terms, teh AI thinking how can I win, what can I do to put me ahead 10, 20 years down the road. Instead, It simply says "o brandenburg is hated throughout the world because it has annex every catholic nation next to it. I (representing the AI here, not myself) am the Ottoman Empire, leader of the muslim faith, what do I care about catholics getting annexed in Northern germany? nothing, but brandenburg has a lot of bad boy points, so I will declare war on them."
kinda silly if you think about it like that.
we are playing a game of history, but it only turns out historical when we let it. Now, I have nothing wrong with conquering half the world, hell , who knows, it could of happened. Thats not what really bothers me. What bothers me is the plain and simple stupidity of the AI. I mean any king that is not smart enough to beg for peace when its army has been whiped out and every major city it controls is surrounded by the enemy deserves to have his head chopped off.
maybe the system of a war score percentage needs to be changed, if its not working, throw it out and start over.
why not just set up a set of conditions? i know it doesnt sound great, but its the best i personally could come up with
something along the lines of
if the enemy outnumbers our troops 5:1 , this will be offered
if the enemy is outnumbered in troops 5:1, but outnumbers us in max manpower 3:1, this will be offered
if our army is elimated and every province is sieged/captured, this will be offered
i would like to list more and give more descriptions of my meanings, but i got to go
Well, call me a reactionary, but I hope the computer is never able to think just as well as a human.
There are a lot of things that could be tweaked, but the basic flaw of AI will remain. There are too many variables and too many possible outcomes for it to calculate them. The computer is quite bad at guessing or recognizing patterns, while it excels at performing calculations.
I usually see the Ottomans controlling the Balkans and Turkey, but I also rarely see them take Egypt. I'm not so sure that the problem is Mameluke strength. I pretty much never notice a war between Ottomans and Mamelukes where Ottomans don't do well. They probably just aren't willing enough to go to war.
There are a lot of things that could be tweaked, but the basic flaw of AI will remain. There are too many variables and too many possible outcomes for it to calculate them. The computer is quite bad at guessing or recognizing patterns, while it excels at performing calculations.
I usually see the Ottomans controlling the Balkans and Turkey, but I also rarely see them take Egypt. I'm not so sure that the problem is Mameluke strength. I pretty much never notice a war between Ottomans and Mamelukes where Ottomans don't do well. They probably just aren't willing enough to go to war.
Often times, the Ottomans, if they survive, tend to go one way or the other, not necessarily both, like historically...
In this context is ascribing human thought or emotion to a machine. And you did note my grin icon right.
Dude you noticed it too?
I hated that so much. I'd declare war on some minor, invade and crush their army, put their cities to the siege
then they'd demand 100 ducats for peace
Originally posted by jaron
Dude you noticed it too?
I hated that so much. I'd declare war on some minor, invade and crush their army, put their cities to the siege
And sometimes you have to pay! If you need the peace bad enough, Say if you are in a BB war or War Exhaustion is killing you. So It is not totally out of wack!
Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
I strongly think so, Anatolia's provinces, are too poor too....
I'm currently running hands-off games for AGC with edited province.txt files (increased Base Tax Values for Asia Minor) In a nutshell, wealthier core provinces in Asia Minor didn't help the Ottomans one bit---on the contrary, they were reduced to a sorry state even earlier than usual.
Here you can get more details about the whole experiment, should be the last post.
Well, I don`t think it is correct that AI dows you without having armies. I often see that, after being involved somewhere else (for example exploring and colonizing) I sometimes get surprised that a country dows me and suddenly I`m totally under AI-controlled armies which siege my european provinces and burn my tradeposts. And that of a coutnry that I checked a bit earlier not to have more than a couple of thousands soldiers, it seem to have an army of about 200k when it attacks me (of course I still win the war in the long turn but that`s beside the point ). So, perhaps except for realy heavy BB-wars, the AI indeed seem to build armies first before it attacks you. At least at the normal/normal setting i usually play.
And the problem of the Ottmans IMO is just their BB which grows to quick - and AI doesn`t seem to dow so quickly when its ai is high. Moreover, they are quite dependant of an early annexation of Byzantium. If that does not happen their economy will kill them within a few years.
). So, perhaps except for realy heavy BB-wars, the AI indeed seem to build armies first before it attacks you. At least at the normal/normal setting i usually play.And the problem of the Ottmans IMO is just their BB which grows to quick - and AI doesn`t seem to dow so quickly when its ai is high. Moreover, they are quite dependant of an early annexation of Byzantium. If that does not happen their economy will kill them within a few years.
yes, in my game with the Ottoman Empire i have to take THRACE quickly (before 1421) because my income wasn't high enough.... it was tooooo low
That´s because yer armies are three times yer support limit at the start.Originally posted by Generalisimo
yes, in my game with the Ottoman Empire i have to take THRACE quickly (before 1421) because my income wasn't high enough.... it was tooooo low