loans, reliable cbs, and the fabrication and pressing of claims on a vassal's behalf

[jakt]

Does the AI ever repay a loan if you give them one? I give 4% interest for 12 months, a loan of like 12 gold, to some medium largish country that i want to break into pieces and feed to my vassal, and they don't pay back and I get a CB. So I get to go to war and destroy their country over 12 ducats. All my allies are like 'YEAH LETS GET HIM HE RENEGED, MAKE HIM PAY'

Why not just have a CB where you pay 12 ducats and in one year you will get the CB for any country of your choice? like a prepared invasion in CK2 or something? it's what it amounts to. it's better than fabricate claim because you can do it to anyone, and i use it for expansion all the time (because i have a vassal bubble buffer around me as i am growing, so i can't really fabricate claims). i kinda feel like i'm cheating though, because i've not had a single repaid loan. the ai sees me doing this the world over, but as long as i keep relations at -50 or above with them, they will take my money. and not repay. and then i take them over and feed them to my vassal slowly since i can only sell one province at a time (lame) and i can't send a diplomat more than once every two months or whatever (lame). but this is really one of the only ways I can get CBs reliably against nations I do not border directly, so I have to use it.

So instead of this way to get CBs, the only reliable way to get them all the time, I think you should be able to fabricate claims for your vassals, and you should be able to press vassal claims. YOU get the AE for it if caught but you can press their claims, and perhaps you share in some of the AE in the end as well. sure your vassal grows, but that's what you wanted to begin with isn't it?

 

[Jorlaan]

Since day ONE I have been wishing for a CB to press vassal claims. I have vassals with cores, not claims on their neighbors and I can't do anything about it without either a stab hit for declaring a war with no CB, or some gamey ass tactic like the one you mention.

 

[dstarsboy]

I agree, since the game has gone pro-keep-your-country-small-but-keep-your-vassals-big now, I think pushing vassal claims would be amazing.

If Paradox doesn't want the system abused (where you can expand aggressively without your own CBs) then they can make it an event that only comes up sporadically, "My king, your vassal [insert name here] just acquired a claim on [insert province name here]. They request that we help them blah blah blah". Bam, done.

One of the WS rewards would be to give the province to your vassal so you don't get the AE hit and have to sell it off yourself.

 

[StatikShocker]

it is silly to have to fabricate a claim on a lithuanian province and declare war with the conwuest of said province as the war goal, when your real goal was always to return cores to your vassal of ukraine.

 

[infidel88]

Except you can't give claimed provinces to your vassal in peace deal, so that would be pretty useless.

 

[MyNameBeatsUrs]

I've had the AI pay back loans at least once. 4% interest, 12 months, lowest possible amount you can loan them. Only useful if them paying back the loan and them reneging are both desirable outcomes. Otherwise, two ticks, 8%, 12 months. Never payed back, almost always accepted.

There really needs to be some sort of different penalty though. Total War over a small loan is nonsense.

Declaring war for a vassals cores would be necessary though, if they fixed loans (which they really should).

Except you can't give claimed provinces to your vassal in peace deal, so that would be pretty useless.

Return any cores via peace deal, sell provinces to vassals.

Makes no sense that you can have a Personal Union, but can't use reconquest as a cb on the partners lost cores.

 

[infidel88]

Return all the other cores via peace deal, take the war target for 0 diplo points, sell it to your vassal.

That's silly. Do we want vassals to fabricate claims to gain land or gain CB? If the latter, this is as gamey as loaning money.

 

[MyNameBeatsUrs]

That's silly. Do we want vassals to fabricate claims to gain land or gain CB? If the latter, this is as gamey as loaning money.

What's silly is when you have a vassal that's lost half its land to your rival, but since the vassal is between you and your rival, the only way you can declare war is via loan renege, and take huge AE hits for taking any claims, or stability loss, for a war to take back what is rightfully your vassals land.

 

[infidel88]

What's silly is when you have a vassal that's lost half its land to your rival, but since the vassal is between you and your rival, the only way you can declare war is via loan renege, and take huge AE hits for reclaiming what is rightfully your vassals land.

You can return cores no matter what CB you have. Even if you don't have one. And you will never get AE for returning cores.

 

[MyNameBeatsUrs]

You can return cores no matter what CB you have. Even if you don't have one. And you will never get AE for returning cores.

You get no CB unless it is loan, which is really gamey, or you take the stability hit from no CB.

To take their claims via Loan gives more AE than via other methods, and it takes diplo points for each one. (I meant claims for the AE hit.)

 

[jakt]

my complaint is it forces you to play in weird ways from what seems straight forward in order to expand.

because of OE it is simply necessary to feed vassals if you want to expand
because of need to feed vassals as opposed to just expanding, one needs some way to get a CB on something that isn't bordering you
because of the need to get a CB on something that isn't bordering you, the best way to do this is to give a loan and go to war over 20 ducats when they inevitably don't pay it back

the loan from the bank is a better loan than i offer them, and it doesn't run the risk of annihilation of your country, yet they take them all the time, even knowing i keep on attacking those who don't pay me back.

i should be able to fabricate claims for my vassals and press said claims. i should also be able to fabricate claims on more than just adjacent provinces, especially in the case of being one extra sea tile (like aragon to tunisa, for example, which i just made them take a loan then took as my vassal when they didn't repay so i could take the north african coast). my vassal is my puppet and i should be able to press their claims.

actually a question for next expansion... if the thirteen colonies form, can i fabricate a claim on a neighboring tribe for them, or is it out of my hands? while sure, they are a special vassal (do they take diplo relationships??) they still are some sort of vassal. if i can fabricate claims on their behalf, why can't i with other vassals? and if I can't... wtf, it makes the thirteen colonies and now i can't expand them anymore aside from adding more colonies? and if it's fabricating for ME on their borders, does it automatically join the thirteen colonies when i conquer it? i think that's my understanding, that they will blob with neighboring holdings... so why can't we do that with other vassals, that in peace they join up with the vassal which is what i wanted anyway

 

[Mann42]

Is it gamey and awkward? Yes. Should the AI actually attempt to pay back loans it accepts? Yes.

Would I prefer to see a way to declare war on behalf of my vassals to regain their land instead? Yes.

Would I prefer to be able to fabricate claims or otherwise have access to CBs that require a border if my vassal borders a country? Yes.

But until they change the systems to allow either or both of the above, the loan CB is a nice gamey way to account for the oversight.

 

[1alexey]

it is silly to have to fabricate a claim on a lithuanian province and declare war with the conwuest of said province as the war goal, when your real goal was always to return cores to your vassal of ukraine.

THat, is actually called diplomacy.

 

[ErikHeinrichs]

So there should be even more arbitrary restrictions to warfare, which is the sole purpose of EU4 according to the devs, than there already are? It should be even easier to attack with a CB then it is atm as this is "a wargame like the devs" blah blah blah.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

actually a question for next expansion... if the thirteen colonies form, can i fabricate a claim on a neighboring tribe for them, or is it out of my hands? while sure, they are a special vassal (do they take diplo relationships??) they still are some sort of vassal. if i can fabricate claims on their behalf, why can't i with other vassals? and if I can't... wtf, it makes the thirteen colonies and now i can't expand them anymore aside from adding more colonies? and if it's fabricating for ME on their borders, does it automatically join the thirteen colonies when i conquer it? i think that's my understanding, that they will blob with neighboring holdings... so why can't we do that with other vassals, that in peace they join up with the vassal which is what i wanted anyway

They are a more special vassal then you think. Colonial nations can declare war on the tribes and conquer them without your help or consent. They can even declare war on someone else's colonial nations (although that is potentially very dangerous ).