Little Question about 1.12

[cahtush]

Is it possible to change the flag/colour depending on who forms a nation?
The whole iberia/spain issue could be solved by making Spains appearence change depending on who formed them.
Portugal would have a greenish colour with a flag like this:

Or Aragon with a redish colour and the regular flag reversed:

 

[grommile]

Additionally in countries subfolder I have 584 files, which means that 6 more TAGS would be only 1% more resource demanding.

The computational complexity cost of adding tags is greater than linear (trivial example: every tag has an opinion of every other tag, so if you have N tags and add another, you not only add a new tag with N opinions, you also add another opinion to each of the N existing countries.)

Edit: and they add (pointless) tags all the time: I am looking at you Estonia and friends.

Estonia is not pointless. It means that there is a tag for Estonian culture, which means that you can get separatist rebels there instead of just heretics and particularists.

 

[zdlugasz]

The computational complexity cost of adding tags is greater than linear (trivial example: every tag has an opinion of every other tag, so if you have N tags and add another, you not only add a new tag with N opinions, you also add another opinion to each of the N existing countries.)

While I agree that calculating relations between each of them we would end with quadratic complexity, I do not think that relations are all that it is done (otherwise it would not be a problem), some actions should have linear complexity (say: recalculating trade power in CoTs etc.). Anyway, since we do not know code any discussion about complexity is meaningless.

Estonia is not pointless. It means that there is a tag for Estonian culture, which means that you can get separatist rebels there instead of just heretics and particularists.

Maybe bad example, but what is a point of estonian culture beside to introduce Estonian tag? They got rid of old_prussian on one hand and on the other they differentiate ugro-finnic into karelian, ingrian, sapmi (is it finnish group?), each of them should require revolter, even if it is completely ahistorical one. Similarly they split castilian and tatar, I wonder if each of those cultures has primary tag. Next in queue will be slovakian and Slovakia TAG?


Edit: are those Sampi etc. tags really important from the balance POW? Surely they do not help for historical immersion (especially since IIRC they are western tech deer hunters - wow)

 

[grommile]

Maybe bad example, but what is a point of estonian culture beside to introduce Estonian tag?

I presume it was there in the first place for reasons of verisimilitude.

They got rid of old_prussian on one hand and on the other they differentiate ugro-finnic into karelian, ingrian, sapmi (is it finnish group?), each of them should require revolter, even if it is completely ahistorical one.

Ingrian culture was effectively eliminated from the game in 1.3 or so (Ingermanland was flipped to Finnish culture), so it doesn't need a revolter tag because it doesn't have any provinces in which to revolt. Karelian and Sami do, indeed, have revolter tags in 1.12.

Similarly they split castilian

So that you can meaningfully reduce Castile's territory without taking it yourself; before the addition of Leon, the only country you could release from starting Castile was the OPM Galicia, and people complained about this a lot. (I wasn't one of them, but I'm not at all upset by the addition of Leon.)

and tatar, I wonder if each of those cultures has primary tag.

Yes! Astrakhan is primary for Astrakhani, Golden Horde for Mishar, Kazan for Qazanly, Qasim for Qasimi, Nogai for Nogaybak, and Crimea for Crimean.

 

[zdlugasz]

I presume it was there in the first place for reasons of verisimilitude.

...

Estonian was in already EU1 and EU2, it was left as nerf for livonian order (slovakian which existed disappeared). But nevermind. I am simply not convinced that every culture needs tag, especially if it is ahistorical one, especially as I edited above: western tech sami hunters.

 

[Ilightmaster]

In history did they ever talk about a union of the balkans ?

 

[kraznaya]

Andalusia (al-andalus) is a new formable. Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

I assume you can get Re-Reconquista with al-Andalus?

 

[DavidRoyman]

In history did they ever talk about a union of the balkans ?

Not in that time period.

Basically what happens in the balcans is that the Ottomans take all the clay up to Wien, the siege there fails, then Austria takes over rulership of Bohemia and Hungary and they solidify the borders with the balcans split between the two.

An unified Kingdom of Yugoslavia is created after WWI when they split Austria, with some clay taken from the Ottomans as well (which were losing territories all over the place due to separatist rebellions). That is occupied by Nazi and then restored as a republic under Tito.

 

[Shien]

I personaly, would like to see China as a formable nation.
IF you are westernized that is.
So you could get the cultural union there.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I personaly, would like to see China as a formable nation.
IF you are westernized that is.
So you could get the cultural union there.

You already have Ming and Qing; no need to more tags slowing the game down for no real added value.

 

[Neoton]

In history did they ever talk about a union of the balkans ?

In the 20th century...

 

[grommile]

In the 20th century...

Yugoslavism became a thing in the late 19th century, actually. (Rather like most forms of European pan-nationalism.)

 

[dharper]

Is it possible to change the flag/colour depending on who forms a nation?

No, not possible. Flags and country color are both assigned to a tag and cannot be changed. If you wanted to have alternate flags, you'd need alternate tags.

Now, you could call the tags the same thing - so you could have two Spains, one with a Portuguese-Castillian flag and one with an Aragonese-Castillian flag. But then you'd have to go through all the missions/events/decisions and check for "SPA" in the code and make sure that it included both tags (SPA and SPP, maybe).

Plus, you could end up in situations in which Spain (Portugal+Castille) appeared as a revolter while Spain (Aragon+Castille) was still around, or vice versa.

All in all, it's probably not feasible right now.

 

[Wagonlitz]

No, not possible. Flags and country color are both assigned to a tag and cannot be changed. If you wanted to have alternate flags, you'd need alternate tags.

Now, you could call the tags the same thing - so you could have two Spains, one with a Portuguese-Castillian flag and one with an Aragonese-Castillian flag. But then you'd have to go through all the missions/events/decisions and check for "SPA" in the code and make sure that it included both tags (SPA and SPP, maybe).

Plus, you could end up in situations in which Spain (Portugal+Castille) appeared as a revolter while Spain (Aragon+Castille) was still around, or vice versa.

All in all, it's probably not feasible right now.

And it would seriously slow the game down. Though didn't they add a dynamic flag system for the revolutionary target a few patches ago? Presumably that system can be extended to all tags.

 

[Knibis]

Estonian was in already EU1 and EU2, it was left as nerf for livonian order (slovakian which existed disappeared). But nevermind. I am simply not convinced that every culture needs tag, especially if it is ahistorical one, especially as I edited above: western tech sami hunters.

I hope i speak for everyone... Historicality > Nerfing/splitting nations to "Balance" the game

 

[grommile]

I hope i speak for everyone... Historicality > Nerfing/splitting nations to "Balance" the game

You don't. I don't even understand how you can imagine such a hope to be anything other than a source of disappointment.

If historicity produces bad gameplay, screw historicity.

 

[themunck]

You don't. I don't even understand how you can imagine such a hope to be anything other than a source of disappointment.

If historicity produces bad gameplay, screw historicity.

Agreed, with the caveat that some nations starting out stronger than others doesn't constitute bad gameplay in and off itself. France starting out better than Ulm is fine. Ulm starting in a posistion where it is literally impossible to overtake France is not.

 

[AluminumSoldier]

Fun gameplay is the goal, historicity is just one facet of that. Purely historical content would be just as boring as a completely balanced gameplay loop. It's combining the two in a fun way. Ahistoricicity is fine if it improves gameplay, in my opinion.

 

[Ilightmaster]

Not in that time period.

Basically what happens in the balcans is that the Ottomans take all the clay up to Wien, the siege there fails, then Austria takes over rulership of Bohemia and Hungary and they solidify the borders with the balcans split between the two.

An unified Kingdom of Yugoslavia is created after WWI when they split Austria, with some clay taken from the Ottomans as well (which were losing territories all over the place due to separatist rebellions). That is occupied by Nazi and then restored as a republic under Tito.

I wondered if in an alternate history, like if ottomans decided to go east instead of west during a certain time period, wouldn't they managed to form an very big alliance to counter them ( in west ). Moreover i was thinking about venise who clearly had interest in his eastern region and could form and significant alliance with balkanid provinces and give up its republic status to take back the silk road for instance.

But i know this seems more like an alternate history for me. I'm not talking about what happened and what should happen but what they could think of during this period.
Sorry for my english, i hope you understood what i mean.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Seems rather pointless.

Exactly also Portugal was yet part of the spanish monarchy during the age covered by the game (in the game is rapresented as personal union, probably to rapresent the different legal status of the portuguese colonies, not being part of castille and direct control of madrid.) , yes, it was with some degree of autonomy, but not differently from the other crowns of the king, like Aragon, Sardinia, Naples, Sicily and the Low Countries. And if in Portuguese continued to be part of the monarchy instead to secede after 1640, I don't think the successive modern countries needed to be called Iberia and not spain, and iberians and not ispanians, in a latine, western way.