little improvements in the portraits?

[Virginian Gent]

This is extremely OT, but blonde hair, really? That's got to be extremely rare.

Anyway, I think that it's a bit silly to argue that all arabs are caucasians (or have such features) or that no arab is a caucasian. Then again, what exactly constitutes a caucasian person? Arabs conquered a massive area in the Middle-East and around the Mediterrannean, where people of white skin hues lived and also imported millions of slaves from around the Mediterranean and present day Russia, as they did from Africa. So there is bound to be some people with caucasian features and some who don't of all the people that today, hundreds of years after the conquests and slave trade, consider themselves arabs. Just as there are spaniards with notably darker skin hue than some others, there most definately are arabs with many different kinds of hues of skin colour.

courtesy wikipedia: The term Caucasian race (also Caucasoid, Europid, or Europoid[1]) has been used to denote the general physical type of some or all of the populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Western Asia (the Middle East), Central Asia and South Asia.[2] Historically, the term has been used to describe the entire population of these regions, without regard necessarily to skin tone.

I'm sorry but I don't see where your rationale is. I wonder if this is a USA vs. Europe thing, where your history and cultural differences cause you to separate Southern Europeans from Arabs in ways that we don't usually in America.

But we better stop because this thread will probably get closed.

 

[Virginian Gent]

Perhaps the problem here is that as there are only two (or three with the Mongol DLC) racial portrait groups some problems will be encountered, in that one has to cover redheaded Irish and Scandinavians, blackhaired Celts, blond Normans (and the other Scandinavians...), olive skinned, black haired Greeks and Latins and across to the Slavic peoples, some of whom can be as red headed as any Irish; another has to cover everything from North Africa down into Ethiopia and Egypt, and across the Levant and up to the asian Black Sea; the third, if available covering the Mongolian invasion.

If there were more race packs available, which there may be later, it would presumably help to cover this.

Besides, the "White Arabs" as opposed to the "Black Arabs" could well be due to mixing with Northern mediterranian culture as opposed to mixing with the darker african groups from further south.

That would be cool but I imagine that wouldn't be on Paradox' list of priorities. Race packs sounds kind of silly to market, besides. The Mongol situation was probably so extreme to warrant it, so I don't imagine it will happen outside of mods, though I think some discussed just how hard it probably will be to mod.

 

[nyah]

separate Southern Europeans from Arabs in ways that we don't usually in America.

But we better stop because this thread will probably get closed.

Thank the gods Abe won.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

OK people, by all means discuss how you would like the portrait system to work but not definitions of race outside the game.

 

[spinoza013]

OK people, by all means discuss how you would like the portrait system to work but not definitions of race outside the game.

Yeah it's all getting a bit too HeyRuka.

 

[Fintilgin]

It will probably get changed in a patch eventually, but I think it sounds like fun for a while.

First game I'm definitely going to try to send all my heirs off to be tutored by muslims/mongols/africans and see how many characters in England/Europe I can convert to foreigners by the end of the game.

 

[Peuri]

I wonder if it would be possible to, instead of adding a new hue layer DNA, add a range of different colour base head DNAs for both culture groups (for a lack of a better word), so that a person from both cultures could, if inherited, have a range of different hue of skin. This would also fix the problem of changing skin colour when changing cultures, since the DNA code for both cultures would correspond to the same base head DNA. Or am I misunderstanding how the DNA works?

 

[InnocentIII]

Culture changes in CK2 aren't that hard to avoid if you really want to.

If it's all tutor-related, then yes it's extremely easy to avoid. But this assumes that no adults adopt another culture, and I could have sworn I saw that happen in an LP. Granted, even then it's going to be rare, but it does emphasize the unfortunate consequences of having the portrait's ethnicity dependent on a variable which can change within the game. It gives a new meaning to the phrase "going native". On the other hand, a few years in Orient could do wonders for Mathilda. She could come back home a new woman!

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Would helmet types displayed change over time? It would be weird to see spangenhelm or Norman nasal helmet in 15th century, or bascinet in 11th century, etc. Also - would there be regional (cultural) variations - like barbutes in Italy, shlems/shishaks in Rus', and so on?

 

[vanin]

As I haven't played the game yet and thus don't know what can and what can not be modded... But I'd be happy if the game on release didn't make characters change looks when they change culture.

 

[minispace]

I've played around with the Sengoku portrait files and the image data is all full 32bit ARGB. I would think the CK2 files would also be like this so I don't see why semi-transparent layers wouldn't be possible.

Nice! It looks like modders (like me?) may be able to cobble together something that looks nice.

minispace's method, I think, works really well, and can be easily improved on by, say, adding eyes and clothes and stuff, after, so that they aren't coloured by the tint. An example layering system being
basic head shape/silhouette + ears/nose/chin/cheeks/brow + skin colour tinting + eyes/hair/facial hair/mouth/eyebrows/anything you don't want tinted + clothes + accessories. All of which, of course, would be inheritable, clothes and accessories aside. Clothes and accessories could be changed depending on culture, but the rest should be straight inheritance matrices.

I think a lot of that is already built in to the system. That cheesy graphic I posted was really really simplified. From a dev diary, the portraits make up many more elements and it might be possible to add extra tint in a non-obtrusive way.

Graphical portrait setup

[COLOR=YellowGreen]# portraits.gfx[/COLOR]
[COLOR=YellowGreen]# graphical look of character portraits[/COLOR]

[COLOR=YellowGreen]# middle age[/COLOR]
portraitType = {
    name = [COLOR=Magenta]"PORTRAIT_norsegfx_male1"[/COLOR]
    effectFile = [COLOR=Magenta]"gfx\\FX\\portrait.fx"[/COLOR]
    layer = { [COLOR=YellowGreen]# GFX_TYPE:[d|p]INDEX:COLOR_LINK[/COLOR]
        [COLOR=Magenta]"GFX_character_western_background:p0"
        "GFX_western_male_clothes_behind:p3"
        "GFX_western_male_headgear_behind:p5"
        "GFX_western_male_beard_behind_midage:p4:h"
        "GFX_western_male_base_midage:p2"
        "GFX_western_male_neck:d0"
        "GFX_western_male_chin:d1"
        "GFX_western_male_mouth_midage:d2"
        "GFX_western_male_nose_midage:d3"
        "GFX_western_male_cheeks_midage:d4"
        "GFX_western_male_head:d5"
        "GFX_western_male_eyes_midage:d6"
        "GFX_western_male_eyes2:d6:e"
        "GFX_western_male_clothes:p3"
        "GFX_western_male_beard_midage:p4:h"
        "GFX_western_male_ear_midage:d7"
        "GFX_western_male_clothes_infront:p3"
        "GFX_western_male_headgear:p5"[/COLOR]
    }

    hair_color_index = [COLOR=Cyan]8[/COLOR] [COLOR=YellowGreen]# which DNA gene sets hair color[/COLOR]
    hair_color = { [COLOR=YellowGreen]# dark, base, highlight[/COLOR]
        { [COLOR=Cyan]15 8 0[/COLOR] } { [COLOR=Cyan]173 158 102[/COLOR] } { [COLOR=Cyan]255 255 255[/COLOR] }
        { [COLOR=Cyan]10 10 10[/COLOR] } { [COLOR=Cyan]125 100 82[/COLOR] } { [COLOR=Cyan]255 255 255[/COLOR] }
        { [COLOR=Cyan]30 22 18[/COLOR] } { [COLOR=Cyan]194 132 97[/COLOR] } { [COLOR=Cyan]255 255 255[/COLOR] }
    }

    eye_color_index = [COLOR=Cyan]9[/COLOR] [COLOR=YellowGreen]# which DNA gene sets eye color[/COLOR]
    eye_color = {
        { [COLOR=Cyan]58 109 193[/COLOR]}
        { [COLOR=Cyan]120 74 46[/COLOR] }
        { [COLOR=Cyan]34 103 36[/COLOR] }
    }
}

So it should be possible to include additional shading behind the eye, beard, clothes, accessory layers. It's just a matter of how many image combinations you need to include to cover different face silhouettes. The less you have to make, the easier it will be to implement.

I would pay for a DLC that handles minispace's solution. you could have a DNA modifier of it, and mixing it with the parents. a child can have any color within the range of both parents. a 10 paleness father and a 6 paleness mother could have a 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 paleness kid.

I take checks and money orders and work for peanuts! Actually that system might not be too hard to do. The hardest part is creating the tint patterns for each face shape (I mean something that actually looks nice and functions well in game). After that, creating various gamma levels for each is just a matter of changing some sliders and organizing the files, and setting up the code. I might give this a shot, but my skills are pretty rudimentary.

 

[Peuri]

I had an idea how it would be possible, perhaps, to add a spectrum of colours to both "races".

What if, instead of adding a layer of colour, we would add layers of facial feature shades to base heads?

What I mean by this is, that we take all the shades away from the base head and make it all of the same colour. Then take the file which contains the facial features for european heads and arab heads and combine them into one file and turn them all to alpha and black. This way both "races" could get any colour of skin and any combination of facial features. I tested it up a bit with the Sengoku files, and here is a crude example of what I mean.

Spoiler

[Light head][Medium head][Darker head]

Here is another picture of the process I had in mind.

[Base head skin colour]+[All the facial feature pieces]+[Hair]=[Finished head]

There would be a bit of work though, since every DNA piece in the game would have to be re-entered, because now both "races" have identical files for noses, ears etc. So if previously an arab had a nose of 5, he should now have a nose of 15, or something. But if done this way, I would think that culture changing from an european to an arab would not change the facial features. If I am correct an european with a nose of 5 should not change to an arabian nose of 5, because the nose 5 is now the same in both the european and the arabian nose file.

Edit: On second thought, I'm not sure if this is possible, because I don't know how the game will react to transparency.

 

[SlyEcho]

I'm not sure you can do this simply with alpha blending. We'd probably have to change the pixel shader to some more fancy compositing.

But the big problem I see is randomness. All children get some randomness in their DNA, which would mean children might have different skin color even if both of their parents have the same skin color. You could fix this by making some DNA elements non-random.

Also random characters have all random DNA, so that would be odd to start getting dark-skinned courtiers in French courts. You could fix this by defining DNA archetypes per culture or even per dynasty.

 

[Featauril]

I'm not sure you can do this simply with alpha blending. We'd probably have to change the pixel shader to some more fancy compositing.

But the big problem I see is randomness. All children get some randomness in their DNA, which would mean children might have different skin color even if both of their parents have the same skin color. You could fix this by making some DNA elements non-random.

Also random characters have all random DNA, so that would be odd to start getting dark-skinned courtiers in French courts. You could fix this by defining DNA archetypes per culture or even per dynasty.

Who says there is no moorish christians in the court of Francis?

 

[Zenith Darksea]

an Englishman like Gordon Brown

Gordon Brown is a Scotsman.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Some of my old 3d models (helmets) quickly applied to CK2 face, what do you guys think?

 

[tretii_sleva]

Some of my old 3d models (helmets) quickly applied to CK2 face, what do you guys think?

I think it's look very nice. I am for diversity in headgear for different cultures. After all, Rus, Franks and Greeks did not wear helmets of same design.

 

[Arko]

Sorry if this is OT, but nobody's saying that if an individual moves from one court to another that their look changes, right? I'm not sure I got the technical discussion of how things are done in CK2 or at least Sengoku.

<hoping for hot Arab princess bride>
<don't want a frumpy goth or Mathilda-look-alike-without-the-land showing up instead>

Reminder: only 14 more days to completely change the portrait art!

I think it maybe possible.
2 reasons :
-portraits change overtime (aging)
-portraits change with court position (councilors)

 

[Peuri]

I'm not sure you can do this simply with alpha blending. We'd probably have to change the pixel shader to some more fancy compositing.

I did some testing with Sengoku, and here are the results:

Spoiler

Some areas, like the ears and right cheek don't have a layer because those facial features come only from the base head in Sengoku. And in other places they overlap. I simply changed the base head to one colour and changed all the facial feature pieces to transparent ones.

I'm below an amateur at image editing, so someone with more skills probably could make them look even prettier with the method I described in my earlier post. But I think that so far the results tell us, that it is possible to aplha blend the facial features to the faces. Atleast, if CK2 works similiar to Sengoku.

But the big problem I see is randomness. All children get some randomness in their DNA, which would mean children might have different skin color even if both of their parents have the same skin color. You could fix this by making some DNA elements non-random.

Also random characters have all random DNA, so that would be odd to start getting dark-skinned courtiers in French courts. You could fix this by defining DNA archetypes per culture or even per dynasty.

I hope that it is possible to set those kinds of DNA archetypes, because if it is impossible to do so, atleast my method of doing things will probably result in some strange outcomes, like you said.

Some of my old 3d models (helmets) quickly applied to CK2 face, what do you guys think?

Those look very nice!

 

[unmerged(63836)]

I think it's look very nice. I am for diversity in headgear for different cultures. After all, Rus, Franks and Greeks did not wear helmets of same design.

Thanks. I've made them for M2TW, which of course requires different level of detail as you don't look at individual soldiers up close, but at hundreds of them from a distance. I can make much more detailed stuff - we'll see what kind of variety CK2 would come with in regards to helmets and armour.